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Thread: Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Man, this is like a candy store for skate fans. I love Daisuke but also admire Chan, and my dearest wish is that both men skate their best at Worlds, leaving it all on the ice. Then let the judges agonize. I've watched Chan's amazing long program from Canadian nationals, and it was just stupendous. Then I went and watched Dai skate a program. All I can say is, the age of skating greatness is not in the past! When either of these two guys is on the ice, we're watching the thunder and lightning of a golden age.

    Chan's one-foot footwork is truly glorious, isn't it? And I love his knees. But Daisuke's musicality is incomparable as well. Oh, my paws and whiskers! Do we have to pick just one?

    I can't wait to hear what you all have to say as you analyze. It will give me more to look for.
    This!!!

    I'm struggling a bit with this - totally hats off to the one foot footwork, with the speed and power, and edges it had. I'm still thinking, but think i give a nod to chan on this comparison; however, OMG I so look forward to seeing them both at worlds. I really really really really hope they can bring us shorts and longs with this caliber of skating because if they do, it will be the "stuff" of lore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Who else does a one foot sequence down the length of the rink? in 12 seconds? More skaters, male and female, are now doing one foot sequences and they look like they are doing a lot of stuff but actually cover a tiny distance or area.

    Chan simply moves with an amazing ease without any apparent work or effort, yet with more speed and ice coverage than anyone else. He's faster on one foot than others on both, stroking away. It's hard work, what David Pelletier calls "Leg Burner".
    I love watching his footwork and find it fascinating in slow-mo because it's really not that slow and seems to be the same speed as other skaters lol. Am I making any sense here?

  3. #18
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    Takahashi: I go back and forth between this and his Olympic SP as his greatest short program. The peaks this one hits are higher, but I think the earlier program sustains itself better. Love the opening – there’s a cool fire to the movements. He’s absolutely in command. Then he explodes into that 4-3. Love his gestures throughout the next sequence. The triple axel is an absolute corker. His first spin, while not amazing, is so well matched to the percussive beats that it’s amazing. His footwork leading into the triple lutz (and then his exit transition) is glorious. Again, love the timing of the second spin, matching the ululating of the vocals perfectly. The expressive passion of Dai is perfectly matched to the choreography. The program loses a bit striving for that level four footwork, and his final spin is just okay, so unfortunately it loses a little oomph.

    Chan: In many respects, this program is the reverse. It has that wow finish that lifts it up. Firstly, his skating skills are divine. I respond most to blade work, and this program is so cannily designed to show that off. Look at how deeply he carves the ice leading into that quad combo! The playful insouciance of this program is just a delight (the little kick he gives in the sequence heading into the 3A is cute). He does the same thing as Dai does in trying to match his first spin to the percussive beat, but it doesn’t work as well. Thankfully, he’s a better spinner so it ends well. The steps leading into his triple lutz is just a gem. We enter what, for me, is the weaker section of the program, with the two spins back-to-back. In order to get that wow moment, he quickly ticks the boxes and moves on. But if you’ve got footwork like his.... well, I don’t really blame him. He’s really such a show off here (yeah, I can do this, and this... oh yeah, and this). This footwork is practically flirtatious. The little leg wiggle he gives (now in the two foot section) - priceless. The speed he carries down the ice and the distance he covers is absolutely sick. The hop into his footwork, the twizzling. Amazing. And the ending, just pitch perfect punctuation.

    So, pick your poison. If we were talking classic movies, Dai’s would be Make Way for Tomorrow and Pat’s would be The Awful Truth. Both are amazing and are exemplars of the form. In film, I prefer Make Way for Tomorrow, and I’ll echo that here with the skating. Doesn’t mean my scores would reflect that, though.

  4. #19
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    IPogue you brought up a choreographic difference that makes me question Dai's program's design. Dai's busy footwork is fabulous and entertaining, also cleverly camouflaging his slower flow and sometimes less steady blade while showcasing his flair and musicality. However, while Patrick ends his program with a punctuating snap after an impressive display of footwork prowess, Dai actually ends with his weak element, a spin, especially the layback that usually doesn't get him a high level and may likely be less impressive to the judges. At this level of competition, such details matter.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Dai actually ends with his weak element, a spin, especially the layback that usually doesn't get him a high level and may likely be less impressive to the judges. At this level of competition, such details matter.
    You mean the spin combination that he received a level 4 whereas Chan got a level 3?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    You mean the spin combination that he received a level 4 whereas Chan got a level 3?
    No, I said his ending spin, the layback. He likes that spin even though he often gets lower level for it and he often does it early in the program, but in this SP he finishes with it. In general, spins are Dai's weaker elements when his energy is low, so I think he should choose carefully what to end the program with to leave the best last impression.

    eta. Sorry, it's the combination with the layback being the last position. He did the element very well until the layback part when he couldn't center well. My comment is about the choreography and there is a higher chance of him doing a subpar layback than most of his other elements, so I wouldn't have ended a program with that spin.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 01-25-2012 at 09:58 PM.

  7. #22
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I thought that Takahashi's closing combination layback spin was fine. It was his earlier camel that was weak.

    For me the two programs are such polar opposites it is hard to compare them. Takahashi's program is like a Dostoevsky novel -- it kept you riveted to your seat in suspense. Something tremendous has just happened! No wait, I mean something tremendous is about to happen. No, no, something tremendous is happening right before our very eyes!

    Chan -- I'll go with Dickens. A delightful playing with his medium, as Dickens played with the English language, master of his craft.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    He did the element very well until the layback part when he couldn't center well.
    So far as the final CCoSp is concerned, Dai received level 4 in Skate Canada (GOE + 1.14), level 4 in NHK Trophy (GOE + 1.07), level 4 in Grand Prix Final (GOE + 0.86), and level 4 in Japanese National (GOE + 1.00). It is the only element that Dai consistently beat Chan with positive GOE. Sorry, that criticism might come across as having a secret agenda.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 01-25-2012 at 10:30 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I thought that Takahashi's closing combination layback spin was fine. It was his earlier camel that was weak.

    For me the two programs are such polar opposites it is hard to compare them. Takahashi's program is like a Dostoevsky novel -- it kept you riveted to your seat in suspense. Something tremendous has just happened! No wait, I mean something tremendous is about to happen. No, no, something tremendous is happening right before our very eyes!

    Chan -- I'll go with Dickens. A delightful playing with his medium, as Dickens played with the English language, master of his craft.
    That's why it's hard to compare interpretations between the masters. And that's why it comes down to skills and techniquea. When both interpretations are uniquely exquisite, the nod would go the one performing on the higher level of difficulty. Or, under COP, they can be equal in some components but the total scores from all elements and components will determine the winner.

  10. #25
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    I can't even compare those two. Like food and cuisine. Dai always leaves the perfect impression, i.e. even with falls he can deliver the program. Chan, when he is clean, is good schoolboy who did his homework well.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Chan, when he is clean, is good schoolboy who did his homework well.

  12. #27
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I thought that Takahashi's closing combination layback spin was fine. It was his earlier camel that was weak.
    I think Takahashi's camel spin in this program is brilliant, an extremely rare case of a CoP spin being perfectly choreographed and interpretative to the music. He's able to accomplish that by only going for a Level 2. If he tried to hold one of the positions for 8 revolutions in order to try and gain more technical points, it would completely hinder the element and the whole program.

    This is why it is so, so important for the PCS marks to be judged properly. If a skater does something just to gain a level on an element and it looks bad and/or does not go with the music or overall choreography, the PCS needs to drop down.

    His final combination spin is very good, with excellent usage of the arms and mostly suitable positions, but I don't think it's perfect because I don't believe his shoot-the-duck sit spin position needs to be there. There could be a better usage of that sit position with the music.

    All of the spins in his program are better interpretively than Patrick's spins. His camel spin and combination spin are better choreographically as well. I would say his flying sit is not better choreographically and that Patrick has perhaps a small advantage technically on that spin.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    So far as the final CCoSp is concerned, Dai received level 4 in Skate Canada (GOE + 1.14), level 4 in NHK Trophy (GOE + 1.07), level 4 in Grand Prix Final (GOE + 0.86), and level 4 in Japanese National (GOE + 1.00). It is the only element that Dai consistently beat Chan with positive GOE. Sorry, that criticism might come across as having a secret agenda.
    It's flattering of you to think I have any power or influence over anybody so as to have a secret agenda. Thank you even if I don't have such illusion of grandeur.

    I wasn't even comparing the spins of the two skaters here. Just knowing some of Dai's history with the layback spin, on its own, and expressing my opinion on his choreography design, which he's not about to change on my account! The level of the spin is determined by the complexity and he executes the sit spin so well that positive GOE are given, but who knows if he could get even higher scores if the layback is as well done . The last element in a program is extremely important and the fact that I remembered his layback finish but forgot the combo says something about last impression.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    I can't even compare those two. Like food and cuisine. Dai always leaves the perfect impression, i.e. even with falls he can deliver the program. Chan, when he is clean, is good schoolboy who did his homework well.
    Are you tempting me to show how their falls differ and whose program is better delivered with falls?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Thank you even if I don't have such illusion of grandeur.
    You're welcome although what I meant was a propaganda machine far from grandeur. I'm glad you are OK with it.

    Speaking of last impression, it is only fair for me to mention my concern for Chan as well--I'm talking about the part after the one-foot skating and before the so-called "punctuating snap" . He fell on it at 2010 Skate Canada, finished well behind the music at 2010 Cup of Russia, Even after he had skated to the same music well over a year, he still sometimes did his "punctuating snap" slightly behind the final note (e.g., Trophée Eric Bompard 2011) so that it highlighted his weakness in hitting the nuances of the music that the judges might have overlooked or been lenient/distracted by his busy feet. As you said, the last element in a program is extremely important, and the fact that I remembered his multiple incidents of missing the final note says something about last impression.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 01-26-2012 at 09:09 AM.

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