Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
You mean the spin combination that he received a level 4 whereas Chan got a level 3?

No, I said his ending spin, the layback. He likes that spin even though he often gets lower level for it and he often does it early in the program, but in this SP he finishes with it. In general, spins are Dai's weaker elements when his energy is low, so I think he should choose carefully what to end the program with to leave the best last impression.

eta. Sorry, it's the combination with the layback being the last position. He did the element very well until the layback part when he couldn't center well. My comment is about the choreography and there is a higher chance of him doing a subpar layback than most of his other elements, so I wouldn't have ended a program with that spin.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I thought that Takahashi's closing combination layback spin was fine. It was his earlier camel that was weak.

For me the two programs are such polar opposites it is hard to compare them. Takahashi's program is like a Dostoevsky novel -- it kept you riveted to your seat in suspense. Something tremendous has just happened! No wait, I mean something tremendous is about to happen. No, no, something tremendous is happening right before our very eyes!

Chan -- I'll go with Dickens. A delightful playing with his medium, as Dickens played with the English language, master of his craft.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
He did the element very well until the layback part when he couldn't center well.
So far as the final CCoSp is concerned, Dai received level 4 in Skate Canada (GOE + 1.14), level 4 in NHK Trophy (GOE + 1.07), level 4 in Grand Prix Final (GOE + 0.86), and level 4 in Japanese National (GOE + 1.00). It is the only element that Dai consistently beat Chan with positive GOE. Sorry, that criticism might come across as having a secret agenda.
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I thought that Takahashi's closing combination layback spin was fine. It was his earlier camel that was weak.

For me the two programs are such polar opposites it is hard to compare them. Takahashi's program is like a Dostoevsky novel -- it kept you riveted to your seat in suspense. Something tremendous has just happened! No wait, I mean something tremendous is about to happen. No, no, something tremendous is happening right before our very eyes!

Chan -- I'll go with Dickens. A delightful playing with his medium, as Dickens played with the English language, master of his craft.

That's why it's hard to compare interpretations between the masters. And that's why it comes down to skills and techniquea. When both interpretations are uniquely exquisite, the nod would go the one performing on the higher level of difficulty. Or, under COP, they can be equal in some components but the total scores from all elements and components will determine the winner.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
I can't even compare those two. Like food and cuisine. Dai always leaves the perfect impression, i.e. even with falls he can deliver the program. Chan, when he is clean, is good schoolboy who did his homework well.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I thought that Takahashi's closing combination layback spin was fine. It was his earlier camel that was weak.

I think Takahashi's camel spin in this program is brilliant, an extremely rare case of a CoP spin being perfectly choreographed and interpretative to the music. He's able to accomplish that by only going for a Level 2. If he tried to hold one of the positions for 8 revolutions in order to try and gain more technical points, it would completely hinder the element and the whole program.

This is why it is so, so important for the PCS marks to be judged properly. If a skater does something just to gain a level on an element and it looks bad and/or does not go with the music or overall choreography, the PCS needs to drop down.

His final combination spin is very good, with excellent usage of the arms and mostly suitable positions, but I don't think it's perfect because I don't believe his shoot-the-duck sit spin position needs to be there. There could be a better usage of that sit position with the music.

All of the spins in his program are better interpretively than Patrick's spins. His camel spin and combination spin are better choreographically as well. I would say his flying sit is not better choreographically and that Patrick has perhaps a small advantage technically on that spin.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
So far as the final CCoSp is concerned, Dai received level 4 in Skate Canada (GOE + 1.14), level 4 in NHK Trophy (GOE + 1.07), level 4 in Grand Prix Final (GOE + 0.86), and level 4 in Japanese National (GOE + 1.00). It is the only element that Dai consistently beat Chan with positive GOE. Sorry, that criticism might come across as having a secret agenda.

It's flattering of you to think I have any power or influence over anybody so as to have a secret agenda. Thank you even if I don't have such illusion of grandeur.

I wasn't even comparing the spins of the two skaters here. Just knowing some of Dai's history with the layback spin, on its own, and expressing my opinion on his choreography design, which he's not about to change on my account! The level of the spin is determined by the complexity and he executes the sit spin so well that positive GOE are given, but who knows if he could get even higher scores if the layback is as well done . The last element in a program is extremely important and the fact that I remembered his layback finish but forgot the combo says something about last impression.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I can't even compare those two. Like food and cuisine. Dai always leaves the perfect impression, i.e. even with falls he can deliver the program. Chan, when he is clean, is good schoolboy who did his homework well.

Are you tempting me to show how their falls differ and whose program is better delivered with falls?
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Thank you even if I don't have such illusion of grandeur.
You're welcome although what I meant was a propaganda machine far from grandeur. I'm glad you are OK with it. :biggrin:

Speaking of last impression, it is only fair for me to mention my concern for Chan as well--I'm talking about the part after the one-foot skating and before the so-called "punctuating snap" . He fell on it at 2010 Skate Canada, finished well behind the music at 2010 Cup of Russia, Even after he had skated to the same music well over a year, he still sometimes did his "punctuating snap" slightly behind the final note (e.g., Trophée Eric Bompard 2011) so that it highlighted his weakness in hitting the nuances of the music that the judges might have overlooked or been lenient/distracted by his busy feet. As you said, the last element in a program is extremely important, and the fact that I remembered his multiple incidents of missing the final note says something about last impression.
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I watched these two SPs back to back twice.

For 4T, Takahashi did better. Can't pick who's better on 3T in the combo, and 3A and 3Lz. Both were brilliant. Chan's interpretation for this piece is perfect while Takahashi has a tiny room for improvement. I feel that Takahashi's this SP's choreography is similar to his LP's choreography. Although his performance is almost always top knotch, I prefer his this year's LP better than his SP. Takahashi's SP music has a weird no-ending ending which undermined the over all impression on this program. At the beginning of this season, I hated the idea of Chan keeping his Take Five SP. Somehow, starting from TEB, I'm beginning to appreciate Chan's this program. At last week Canadian Nationals, I completely fell in love with it. This was something that I've never felt for this program even at last year's Canadian Nationals and last year's worlds. That one foot footwork of Chan's is to die for. Where on earth did he get the power to push through such long distance with such fast speed?!:bow:

I'd give Chan the win over Takahashi if they both perform like this in a competition. I feel that Chan deserved over 100 points and Takahashi deserved his. There won't be much dispute in such performances.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I thought that Takahashi's closing combination layback spin was fine. It was his earlier camel that was weak.

Camel spin is the widest spin and the most difficult to keep up speed and be centered. So many skaters are painfully slow doing their camel, almost at a standstill trying to complete more revolutions. Dai's was pretty fast though he didn't or couldn't do more rotations to qualify for more than a level 2. So many Men do the donut thing these days. I guess they try to receive a higher level call with it while also reducing the radius/scope of the spin.

eta. I love the beautiful simplicity of lines when a good Camel Spin is done with great extension and position.
 
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Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
At the beginning of this season, I hated the idea of Chan keeping his Take Five SP. Somehow, starting from TEB, I'm beginning to appreciate Chan's this program. At last week Canadian Nationals, I completely fell in love with it. This was something that I've never felt for this program even at last year's Canadian Nationals and last year's worlds. That one foot footwork of Chan's is to die for. Where on earth did he get the power to push through such long distance with such fast speed?!:bow:

.

I am surprised it took you that long to fall in love with this program. For me it's love at first sight. It's truly a masterpiece in terms of both design and execution. I felt I was watching Gene Kelly or Fred Astaire dancing when I watched this program. And I can watch it again and again and never get tired of it. That's why Lori and Patrick are the best in this field!
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Chan, when he is clean, is good schoolboy who did his homework well.

skatinginbc said:

Oh, no no no. What Patrick is, is cool. He's old-school cool. He's cool like the Fonz was cool. :)

Let others do Fierce and Intense. I don't want to see Patrick skate to Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor. I want to see him do Sweet Georgia Brown. :yes:
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Are you tempting me to show how their falls differ and whose program is better delivered with falls?
You inspired my interest, so I did a little research. During the entire 2011 GP series, Dai fell only once (NHK Trophy LP) whereas Chan fell 6 times (twice in Skate Canada LP, once for TEB SP and another for LP, one each for GPF SP and LP). Dai apparently could not compete against Chan's diversity and propensity for falling. And here are some of the examples:

Chan:
Upturned turtle fall (TEB LP during CiSt3, www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK8GrUHrqLw 1:38–1:44)
Forward frog fall (Skate Canada LP leading into 3Lz, www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYbdWqeLrkQ 2:48-2:54)
And his regular sideways hand-down fall (TEB LP, www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAYBHthR4Gw 3:12-3:19)(GPF LP, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQIWeDxeW_8 4:16-4:28)(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeQ0PZDAsqo 0:38-0:45)(TEB SP, www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeQ0PZDAsqo 0:38-0:45)

Dai:
His regular sideways hand-down fall (NHK LP, www.youtube.com/watch?v=IevEFHTCqeo 1:04-1:12).

Chan's falls certainly add variety and dimension to his programs.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Chan, when he is clean, is a prodigious genius with a Ph. D. before he could drink legally. :cool: A good schoolboy indeed. :thumbsup:

eta. Thanks Mathman! If I were one, I wouldn't have made the mistake! :disapp:
 
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