Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

Boeing787 · Jan 26, 2012

Bluebonnet said:
It might make you even more surprised that it took me two years, I finally fell in love with his POTO program at last year Canadian Nationals.

I may surprise many people by saying my favorite POTO is his SC 2010 performance. I think it's simply the most passionate version, while in 2011 national and worlds, his performance had an easy pace.

Boeing787 · Jan 26, 2012

Now back to Pat vs. Dai. Between the two, I think Dai is a better dancer, but Patrick is a better skater. Dai wins the heart of the (biased or not knowledgeable)audience, while Patrick wins the mind of the judges.

Fozzie Bear · Jan 26, 2012

Just because many (including myself) may prefer Dai's skating, does not mean we are not knowledgeable about skating. :rolleye:

I can be in awe of Patrick's edges and technical ability and concede that he is the best in those regards. That may be what the scoring system values most at the moment. But many (including myself) may value Dai's interpretive ability, performance skills, and choreography more.

pangtongfan · Jan 26, 2012

Chan will win even if he falls 10 times so what does it matter.

skateluvr · Jan 26, 2012

perfect Takahashi won't beat a flawed Chan. see above...It is Chan's title already. Just as Three triple axels couldn't beat the faster, Yuna with one big scoring triple triple....

It is already seen that Chan has to skate really poorly to not get huge scores, and he will still win. So comparing the two re: who wins worlds is pointless. Dai is mature elegance. Chan is all over the rink, speedy, young and flashy. The judges love his speed and edges and the footwork done at such speed, they forgive jump mistakes/falls. Yuna was crowned and Patrick will be crowned until Sochi. Then he meets maybe the young, hungry and we hope healthy Hanyu. His coronation will happen in Sochi unless the Russian men have someone as good as Chan, and that isn't going to happen. Dai has maturity and that is why we love him-he is a complete, mature, truly elegant skater. Chan has the possibility if he keeps perfecting what he did at Nationals to be listed with the greatest single skaters ever, esp if he wins Gold in Sochi, and It looks very likely he will, unless he pulls out for injury reasons, or can't skate.

Speed gets the votes. Irina, Carolina, Yuna are examples of how skaters with great speed often win over slower, but equally good skaters. I hope to see Chan mature as a professional but I hear he will quit after Sochi, and we will never see who he is as an artist. For now until Sochi, he is a CoP master and athlete. A great one.

ImaginaryPogue · Jan 26, 2012

skateluvr said:
perfect Takahashi won't beat a flawed Chan. see above...It is Chan's title already. Just as Three triple axels couldn't beat the faster, Yuna with one big scoring triple triple....

It is already seen that Chan has to skate really poorly to not get huge scores, and he will still win. So comparing the two re: who wins worlds is pointless. Dai is mature elegance. Chan is all over the rink, speedy, young and flashy. The judges love his speed and edges and the footwork done at such speed, they forgive jump mistakes/falls. Yuna was crowned and Patrick will be crowned until Sochi. Then he meets maybe the young, hungry and we hope healthy Hanyu. His coronation will happen in Sochi unless the Russian men have someone as good as Chan, and that isn't going to happen. Dai has maturity and that is why we love him-he is a complete, mature, truly elegant skater. Chan has the possibility if he keeps perfecting what he did at Nationals to be listed with the greatest single skaters ever, esp if he wins Gold in Sochi, and It looks very likely he will, unless he pulls out for injury reasons, or can't skate.

Speed gets the votes. Irina, Carolina, Yuna are examples of how skaters with great speed often win over slower, but equally good skaters. I hope to see Chan mature as a professional but I hear he will quit after Sochi, and we will never see who he is as an artist. For now until Sochi, he is a CoP master and athlete. A great one.

1. Of course, in your analogy, Asada would correlate to Chan because he has the high scoring jumps (three quads vs Takahashi's 1ish)

2. This discussion is about their two programs and what we prefer, whether using COP nitty-gritty or just what we enjoy. It's a debate wherein we learn about each other's perceptions. I wouldn't argue that's pointless.

3. If one is slower, how are they equally good? In what way?

Olympia · Jan 26, 2012

Fozzie Bear said:
Just because many (including myself) may prefer Dai's skating, does not mean we are not knowledgeable about skating. I can be in awe of Patrick's edges and technical ability and concede that he is the best in those regards. That may be what the scoring system values most at the moment. But many (including myself) may value Dai's interpretive ability, performance skills, and choreography more.

That's it in a nutshell. I understand that Patrick is phenomenal, and I love to watch him, but the difference between skating and other sports is that there's an X factor that pulls people in. It's why there are people who applaud politely when Plushenko skates and melt down blissfully when Stephane Lambiel shows up. For me, Daisuke is a "melt down blissfully" skater no matter whom he skates against.

Boeing787 · Jan 26, 2012

Olympia said:
That's it in a nutshell. I understand that Patrick is phenomenal, and I love to watch him, but the difference between skating and other sports is that there's an X factor that pulls people in. It's why there are people who applaud politely when Plushenko skates and melt down blissfully when Stephane Lambiel shows up. For me, Daisuke is a "melt down blissfully" skater no matter whom he skates against.

As always, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I was in tears when I watched Patrick's Aranjuez, I saw the perfect combination of force and grace. I don't get this kind of feeling from any other skaters.

jettasian · Jan 26, 2012

pangtongfan said:
Chan will win even if he falls 10 times so what does it matter.

Yay, another thought provoking genius has joined in the fun!!!

Just want to say that if people want to see so-called "dancer, dramatic flare, performance..." skating, well, they should stick to Star on Ice.

skatinginbc · Jan 26, 2012

jettasian said:
If people want to see so-called "dancer, dramatic flare, performance" skating, well, they should stick to Star on Ice.

I bet Skate Canada would love to hear Patrick speak that line to the media because it is so true and honest and fitting to his streams of consciousness.

wallylutz · Jan 26, 2012

skatinginbc said:
Daisuke Takahashi had a perfect short at the Japanese National (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziQ253eUi2I). Patrick Chan did the same at the Canadian National (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61VttCq5NSE&feature=related). Both landed the same jumps (4T3T, 3A, 3Lz). Both expressed dissatisfaction with their own performance in the interview. "My skating was just so-so," Daisuke said. "It may not have been the most solid...it wasn't a walk in the park," said Chan. Suppose the aforementioned performances occurred in the same competition, how would you have judged them? You may score them by element or rank them by holistic impression. I just want to hear your opinions. Thanks.

Dai's elements: 4T+3T, 3A, FSSp, 3Lz, CCSp, SISt, CCoSp. (http://www.skatingjapan.jp/National/2011-2012/fs_e/national/data0103.pdf)
Chan's elements: 4T+3T, 3A, CCoSp, 3Lz, FSSp, CCSp, SlSt. (http://results.skatecanada.ca/2011-2012/2012CDNS/2012CDNSSrMenShortsegJudgesDetails.pdf)

Daisuke Takahashi

1. 4T+3T +1
2. 3A +2
3. FSSp4 +2
4. 3Lz +2
5. CCSp2 +1
6. SlSt3 +2
7. CCoSp4 +2

SS: 8.50 TR: 8.00 PE: 9.25 CH: 9.50 IN: 9.50

TES = 48.90 PCS = 44.75 Total = 93.65

Patrick Chan

1. 4T+3T +2
2. 3A +2
3. CCoSp3 +2
4. 3Lz +2
5. FSSp4 +2
6. CCSp4 +2
7. SlSt4 +3

SS: 9.25 TR: 8.75 PE: 9.50 CH: 9.25 IN: 9.50

TES = 52.50 PCS = 46.25 Total = 98.75

Conclusion: If both skate clean in the SP, without a doubt, the advantage clearly goes to Patrick Chan who is technically superior in every way over Daisuke Takahashi who is clearly past his prime as a competitive skater.

jettasian · Jan 26, 2012

skatinginbc said:
I bet Skate Canada would love to hear Patrick speak that line to the media because it is so true and honest and fitting to his streams of consciousness.

Why'd Patrick say that? Nobody has issue with his artistry except a few people here... And they only say that because they can't find any weaknesses on his skate, so they gotta have to come up with something negative. And since "artistry" is so subjective, there's no right or wrong answers.

wallylutz said:
Daisuke Takahashi
Conclusion: If both skate clean in the SP, without a doubt, the advantage clearly goes to Patrick Chan who is technically superior in every way over Daisuke Takahashi who is clearly past his prime as a competitive skater.

And that's just the short program. Unless Patrick screws up big time in the long and Dai skates light out, how's he going to catch up just with the technical area?

Bluebonnet · Jan 26, 2012

Boeing787 said:
I may surprise many people by saying my favorite POTO is his SC 2010 performance. I think it's simply the most passionate version, while in 2011 national and worlds, his performance had an easy pace.

I'm afraid that we are going down the path of "my horse is bigger than your horse." :laugh:

But I'll say it anyway because it's fun: My favorite Aranjuez from him is the very first time I saw it at 2011 Japan Open with three hard falls. And that was still my favorite to date. :biggrin:

That was the first time ever I fell in love with Chan's program at the first sight.

Olympia · Jan 27, 2012

Boeing787 said:
As always, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I was in tears when I watched Patrick's Aranjuez, I saw the perfect combination of force and grace. I don't get this kind of feeling from any other skaters.

I just went back and watched Patrick's short program. That footwork sequence is the bee's knees! So spectacular. I hope he skates it that way at Worlds. I love Takahashi and always will, but Chan can give me gooseflesh too. Does this mean that I'm greedy? Well, I suppose so; I want to see the best in skating everywhere I look.

What's amazing about Chan is to realize that this is something like his fifth year as Canadian champion. So he's been just about this good since he was quite a young sprout!

One thing that struck me watching his choreography is how much Lori Nichol has entered into the spirit of the music. (I happen to love "Take Five" as a skating piece, no matter how many other people have used it.) Nichol clearly realizes that, as with Michelle Kwan, she has someone special to work with, who can carry out everything she invents. This brings up an issue that several of you have mentioned before. Why do we see such wonderful choreographic adventurousness with the men and very little of it among the ladies? Takahashi and Chan really wring the most out of the skating possibilities--and I'm not even talking about jumps, but about how they use their whole bodies to create great shapes and positions. Why don't many ladies do this?

fscric · Jan 27, 2012

Olympia said:
Takahashi and Chan really wring the most out of the skating possibilities--and I'm not even talking about jumps, but about how they use their whole bodies to create great shapes and positions. Why don't many ladies do this?

I think it has to do with what the skater(s) is(are) capable of materializing the choreography.

Bluebonnet · Jan 27, 2012

Olympia said:
Why do we see such wonderful choreographic adventurousness with the men and very little of it among the ladies? Takahashi and Chan really wring the most out of the skating possibilities--and I'm not even talking about jumps, but about how they use their whole bodies to create great shapes and positions. Why don't many ladies do this?

Also, figure skating has never been popular in men like in women. How come men's skating standard is so high with such a small talent pool?

Olympia · Jan 27, 2012

Bluebonnet said:
Also, figure skating has never been popular in men like in women. How come men's skating standard is so high with such a small talent pool?

What an interesting question, Bluebonnet. I never thought of the issue from that angle before.

skateluvr · Jan 27, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
1. Of course, in your analogy, Asada would correlate to Chan because he has the high scoring jumps (three quads vs Takahashi's 1ish)

2. This discussion is about their two programs and what we prefer, whether using COP nitty-gritty or just what we enjoy. It's a debate wherein we learn about each other's perceptions. I wouldn't argue that's pointless.

3. If one is slower, how are they equally good? In what way?

IP, just throwing in the reality PC will win anyway, but I can't choose who has better program. I like all four. Both skaters are majic when on. Dai has more finesse as he is more experienced but Chan has big wow factors like speed, flow, edges, ice coverage, footwork. He is the all around best esp when hes not muffing up jumps.

The speed issue-since I see skating on TV, it's hard to discern speed unless it is blazing. Under CoP we see every moment filled up. Speed is not always best for great program. I like to see skaters do slower movements to see their edge control and how well they interpret a quiet peice or interlude. Mao gets dinged for lacking Yuna
's' speed but I prefer her skating for her beautiful lines, held out elements. Maybe if I saw Yuna in the rink, I might change my mind.

Speed doesn't always equal quality in singles. I think its more important in pairs/dance because lends so much to the two as one excitement in well done programs.

figureskatingfan22 · Jan 27, 2012

Boeing787 said:
Now back to Pat vs. Dai. Between the two, I think Dai is a better dancer, but Patrick is a better skater. Dai wins the heart of the (biased or not knowledgeable)audience, while Patrick wins the mind of the judges.

I agree. I've watched skating for years. But I've never skated and our German commentators rarely point something out besides jumps and obvious mistakes. So I fail to see most of Patrick Chan's superiority in skating skills. Therefore I prefer Takahashi's presentation and dancing skills. I'm just able to acknowledge Chan's step sequence on one foot. But apart from that I'm simply unknowledgeable. But after reading lots of praise of Patrick I can accept his superiority.

I just sometimes think that it is kind of unfair to put such an emphasis on skating skills, because the majority in that department is learnt until the age of 12. Someone Takahashi's age will never reach Chan's level and therefore never have a chance to beat him. That mostly explains to me why Chan is unbeatable at the moment.

Olympia · Jan 27, 2012

Also, if Chan is superior to Takahashi at some baseline level, it isn't by much. Daisuke isn't slow, and he doesn't exactly saw or grind his way around the rink. All the comparisons done here have to break things down to the unit level before making their point. So the X factors of talent and artistry count for something too. Chan isn't going to beat Takahashi automatically at every competition.

Additionally, people can prefer one or another skater for all sorts of reasons without being delusional or ill-informed. Skating is a largely subjective sport, and fans don't get graded. I'm not saying this to scold anyone but just to point out something. To use tennis metaphors (as jcoates does far more skillfully than I), many people preferred Andre Agassi to Pete Sampras for years, and everyone knew that Sampras was the more complete tennis player, a virtual tennis machine. Agassi was just such a joy to watch, he had fine (though different) skills of his own, and there were times that he beat Sampras in any case. The same is true, going further back, of Chris Evert vs. Evonne Goolagong.

Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

Boeing787

Boeing787

Fozzie Bear

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

skateluvr

ImaginaryPogue

Olympia

Boeing787

jettasian

Match Penalty

skatinginbc

wallylutz

jettasian

Match Penalty

Bluebonnet

Olympia

fscric

Bluebonnet

Olympia

skateluvr

figureskatingfan22

Olympia

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