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Thread: Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by figureskatingfan22 View Post
    I just sometimes think that it is kind of unfair to put such an emphasis on skating skills, because the majority in that department is learnt until the age of 12. Someone Takahashi's age will never reach Chan's level and therefore never have a chance to beat him. That mostly explains to me why Chan is unbeatable at the moment.
    I think since it's figure skating, emphasising on skating skills is correct. That skaters like Takahashi can never catch Chan is not a measure for a system, not any system.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Are you tempting me to show how their falls differ and whose program is better delivered with falls?
    No, I am not because I already know the answer: Chan's falls are the most hillarious and entertaining, also they come in big numbers. Dai's, and not Dai's only, falls are much rarer. Chan follows the movement that his teacher told him to follow, with the same face expression and a little idea what the music is about. Dai has each note on the ice because he knows how to feel the music.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Oh, no no no. What Patrick is, is cool. He's old-school cool. He's cool like the Fonz was cool.
    Let others do Fierce and Intense. I don't want to see Patrick skate to Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor. I want to see him do Sweet Georgia Brown.
    But Aranjuez is not 'cool'. It's full of passion and sensual stuff. Unless it's the blah Aranjuez.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    You inspired my interest, so I did a little research. During the entire 2011 GP series, Dai fell only once (NHK Trophy LP) whereas Chan fell 6 times (twice in Skate Canada LP, once for TEB SP and another for LP, one each for GPF SP and LP). Dai apparently could not compete against Chan's diversity and propensity for falling. And here are some of the examples:

    Chan:
    Upturned turtle fall (TEB LP during CiSt3, www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK8GrUHrqLw 1:38–1:44)
    Forward frog fall (Skate Canada LP leading into 3Lz, www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYbdWqeLrkQ 2:48-2:54)
    And his regular sideways hand-down fall (TEB LP, www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAYBHthR4Gw 3:12-3:19)(GPF LP, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQIWeDxeW_8 4:16-4:28)(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeQ0PZDAsqo 0:38-0:45)(TEB SP, www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeQ0PZDAsqo 0:38-0:45)

    Dai:
    His regular sideways hand-down fall (NHK LP, www.youtube.com/watch?v=IevEFHTCqeo 1:04-1:12).

    Chan's falls certainly add variety and dimension to his programs.
    Wow! You amused me. Such a great work! I am too lazy to bother to count Chan's falls. They seem like come endlessly. But you did a real research that should go to some FS library records.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Also, if Chan is superior to Takahashi at some baseline level, it isn't by much. Daisuke isn't slow, and he doesn't exactly saw or grind his way around the rink. All the comparisons done here have to break things down to the unit level before making their point. So the X factors of talent and artistry count for something too.
    There is no accounting in competition of the hearts but in official figure skating competitions as a sport, the X factors count for a limited percentage, directly in components of IN, P/E and maybe CH, plus whatever indirect influence in other marks.

    Chan isn't going to beat Takahashi automatically at every competition.
    Nobody will beat anybody automatically, especially at such level and such close rivalry. But Chan has a high chance of beating Takahashi, and has consistently done so in every competition since Worlds 2010. Takahashi's chances are much better in the SP portion and he did beat Chan by a fraction of a point in SC, the first match up this season. Then there was a close one in the LP in GPF. But Chan's higher TES content and higher consistency in execution in the LP make it extremely difficult for Takahashi to overtake him. It has to be a combination of Takahashi skating lights out, including landing his quads, and Chan blowing it. Then there are the patterns of progression to take into consideration. Chan usually gets his more and more challenging LP down pat at or after the GPF and hits his peak close to the end of the season whereas Takahashi tends to do his best at NHK and the Nationals, way before the final showdown. Hopefully he didn't peak at the SP of the Nationals this time. He has fallen 6 times in 2 competitions since this SP and 4CC won't be easy for him either with high altitude to contend with.

    My earlier comment about fallings referred to Chan's always quick recovery without loss of choreography, unlike many other skaters including Takahashi. I respect both skaters highly and would not be dragged into ridiculing either one with selective footages and juvenile mocking not befitting this forum. The above analysis is as objective as my knowledge allows and pertains to official competitions.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by figureskatingfan22 View Post
    I just sometimes think that it is kind of unfair to put such an emphasis on skating skills, because the majority in that department is learnt until the age of 12. Someone Takahashi's age will never reach Chan's level and therefore never have a chance to beat him. That mostly explains to me why Chan is unbeatable at the moment.
    I think in Chan's case, his skating skills is the result of both rare natural talent and wise coaching. Training alone won't guarantee a skater such high level of skills. Mr. Colson taught several kids along with Patrick, but only Patrick made it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    No, I am not because I already know the answer: Chan's falls are the most hillarious and entertaining, also they come in big numbers. Dai's, and not Dai's only, falls are much rarer. Chan follows the movement that his teacher told him to follow, with the same face expression and a little idea what the music is about. Dai has each note on the ice because he knows how to feel the music. But Aranjuez is not 'cool'. It's full of passion and sensual stuff. Unless it's the blah Aranjuez.

    Wow! You amused me. Such a great work! I am too lazy to bother to count Chan's falls. They seem like come endlessly. But you did a real research that should go to some FS library records.
    Chan-haters can go on hating him, but this skater will skate and win the gold. Just wait and see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    One thing that struck me watching his choreography is how much Lori Nichol has entered into the spirit of the music. (I happen to love "Take Five" as a skating piece, no matter how many other people have used it.) Nichol clearly realizes that, as with Michelle Kwan, she has someone special to work with, who can carry out everything she invents. This brings up an issue that several of you have mentioned before. Why do we see such wonderful choreographic adventurousness with the men and very little of it among the ladies? Takahashi and Chan really wring the most out of the skating possibilities--and I'm not even talking about jumps, but about how they use their whole bodies to create great shapes and positions. Why don't many ladies do this?
    Gene Kelly said dancing is a man's game. Can I say skaing is so as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    Chan-haters can go on hating him, but this skater will skate and win the gold. Just wait and see.
    And you know that the more they hate, it proofs Chan's getting even better. And their fave has lesser chance to win, thus, hating Chan even more etc. It's the cycle thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    Gene Kelly said dancing is a man's game. Can I say skaing is so as well?
    But this is not figure dancing, or dancing skating. It's a sport, right? As I said it before, stick to Star on Ice if they want "dance, performance, over the top darmatic pull your heart out emotions"

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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    But this is not figure dancing, or dancing skating. It's a sport, right? As I said it before, stick to Star on Ice if they want "dance, performance, over the top darmatic pull your heart out emotions"
    I agree with you 100%, but I was trying to answer Olympia's question "Takahashi and Chan really wring the most out of the skating possibilities--and I'm not even talking about jumps, but about how they use their whole bodies to create great shapes and positions. Why don't many ladies do this?". Few ladies have the strength to do what Pat and Dai do on ice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Wow! You amused me. Such a great work! I am too lazy to bother to count Chan's falls. They seem like come endlessly. But you did a real research that should go to some FS library records.
    Thank you. After watching them back to back, Chan's falls indeed stood out, especially his famous upturned turtle fall, forward frog fall and sidewise crab fall. The reputation and comical effect appeared so great that the judges were deduction-shy, oblivious to or unconscious of the insecure steps/edges leading to those falls.

    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Daisuke Takahashi
    7. CCoSp4 +2

    Patrick Chan
    3. CCoSp3 +2

    Conclusion: ....Patrick Chan who is technically superior in every way over Daisuke Takahashi.
    Your conclusion contradicts your assessment. Stojko pointed out spins as ones of Chan's weakness. Apparently there is some truth in it.

    My criticism of Chan's SP and his programs in general concerns his relative lack of varied speed. All his field moves are brief and uncreative, insufficient to demonstrate the true ability of keeping an extended edge. He wiggles and jiggles his body and feet all the time to change edges or generate speed or maintain balance (Worst still, his wiggling and jiggling does not always match the notes of the music). Can he produce beautiful positions on the same edge for a long time? Or will his technical ability and posture and interpretation skills be exposed as a result thereof? That is a question I always have, given that he hardly gives the audience a chance to see it.

    As far as Da's SP is concerned, I appreciate his innovative, extended one-foot field move right before his camel spins. And I respect his momentary stop during his footwork to reflect the nuances of music and to showcase his ability of acceleration from zero. It is a program that demonstrates varied speed, not one-dimensional albeit fast like Chan's.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 01-27-2012 at 07:45 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    My criticism of Chan's SP and his programs in general concerns his relative lack of varied speed. All his field moves are brief and uncreative, insufficient to demonstrate the true ability of keeping an extended edge. He wiggles and jiggles his body and feet all the time to change edges or generate speed or maintain balance (Worst still, his wiggling and jiggling does not always match the notes of the music). Can he produce beautiful positions on the same edge for a long time? Or will his technical ability and posture and interpretation skills be exposed as a result thereof? That is a question I always have, given that he hardly gives the audience a chance to see it.
    Wow, you and I must be watching different skaters! I feel that the highlighted words in your post are unwarranted. Could you please give the details in his program or programs where you have found them/or not found them?
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 01-27-2012 at 03:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Could you please give the details in his program or programs where you have found them/or not found them?
    Why don't you name the place where Chan demonstrated an extended field work during his SP? Can you even find it?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Why don't you name the place where Chan demonstrated an extended field work during his SP? Can you even find it?
    Do you have to see a spread eagle in every program to prove it?
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 01-27-2012 at 03:34 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I certain will when I have longer time. But you mean you couldn't? Because you've found them, I assume that you have them on hand.
    Of course I couldn't. My criticism pertains to his lack of it. When something is absent, how do you expect me to find it? Gee, what kind of logic you are playing!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Do you have to see a spread eagle in every program to prove it?
    Can't he be more creative doing something like Dai's innovative field work? A brief spread eagle...hehe, so lame. Anyway, my emphasis is--to demonstrate a variety of skills. Chan hasn't proven his ability of keeping an extended edge and at the same time showcasing his interpretation of the music and good posture with his competitive programs. It is a weakness in his choreography and I wonder if it is a weakness in his skating skills as well.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 01-27-2012 at 03:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Of course I couldn't. My criticism pertains to his lack of it. When something is absent, how do you expect me to find it? Gee, what kind of logic you are playing!
    I mean if you demand spread eagle kind of long demonstration in every program, it's not going to happen. Patrick has demonstrated extraordinary speed changing abilities in this program and his programs in general. The program has ups and downs, pulse and accelerating. It is perfectly fitting into the music and the theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Can't he be more creative doing something like Dai's innovative field work? A brief spread eagle...hehe, so lame.
    Patrick has so many creative, original, beautiful moves in every single program of his. I'm just amazed that you could find Dai's innovative moves but not Patrick's.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 01-27-2012 at 03:53 PM.

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