Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

SkateFiguring said:

My earlier comment about fallings referred to Chan's always quick recovery without loss of choreography, unlike many other skaters including Takahashi. I respect both skaters highly and would not be dragged into ridiculing either one with selective footages and juvenile mocking not befitting this forum. The above analysis is as objective as my knowledge allows and pertains to official competitions.

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Selective footage? I gave all-inclusive footage. Chan fell 6 times and Dai only once during the GP series. Everyone can watch the footage and see if it is true for you to claim "Chan's always quick recovery without loss of choreography, unlike many other skaters including Takahashi."

Mocking (even though it is funny because it is true) is "not befitting this forum" and yet constant propaganda by sneakily putting unfounded ideas (e.g., "unlike many other skaters including Takahashi") here and there into people's mind is befitting? Well, what a hypocritical standard!

SkateFiguring said:

I understand well people project but I accept them as they are even as I engage in debates with them. I keep myself very OK and happy that way.

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I will keep myself very happy that way if I can get paid that kind of money--I mean, your job in the financial industry as you once said. It must be very demanding, involving long hours of chatting with business partners on the internet.

Boeing787 said:

I agree with you 100%, but I was trying to answer Olympia's question "Takahashi and Chan really wring the most out of the skating possibilities--and I'm not even talking about jumps, but about how they use their whole bodies to create great shapes and positions. Why don't many ladies do this?". Few ladies have the strength to do what Pat and Dai do on ice.

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I thought it was a great comparison for you to bring up, Boeing. To explore the issue further, I'm wondering whether Kelly's statement is still true, or was ever always true, in dance (thinking of Eleanor Powell and Ann Miller, as well as Cyd Charisse in another direction) and also in skating. Also, some of the innovative stuff is not a product of unusual manly strength (ahem) but of originality. Clearly there are ways to shift balance, to syncopate rhythm, to get out of a rigid box of prescribed moves, that women could do just as well as men. A lot of the improvement in that area could come from the choreographer. And it's not as though this has never been done before. Stephanie Rosenthal's "Rockit" comes to mind, as well as some of the stuff Marina Anissina did in skating with Gwendal Piezerat (though her lifting him is a bit obvious, it surely proves the possibilities).

Thanks, Boeing 787!

skatinginbc said:

Do you mean the brief and uncreative two-foot spread eagle insufficient to demonstrate the true ability of keeping an extended edge? Hehe, you should compare that with Dai's and Buttle's innovative one-foot field work.

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To be fair, I really love Takahashi's holding one folding leg while moving before camel spin in his SP! But Takahashi was on both edge, not on one edge. It was really not difficult. Also, one innovative move from other skaters doesn't deminish Chan's ability on creativities. You think that was the best quality in skating skills? Think harder! That's actually the basic of it. The best extended edge on one leg for at least three seconds is not in men's skating. It's in ladies' skating.

wallylutz said:

Daisuke Takahashi

1. 4T+3T +1
2. 3A +2
3. FSSp4 +2
4. 3Lz +2
5. CCSp2 +1
6. SlSt3 +2
7. CCoSp4 +2

Patrick Chan

1. 4T+3T +2
2. 3A +2
3. CCoSp3 +2
4. 3Lz +2
5. FSSp4 +2
6. CCSp4 +2
7. SlSt4 +3

...the edge goes to Patrick Chan who is technically superior in every way over Daisuke Takahashi...

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Maybe so, but on the element side the two lists look identical to me. The Canadian judges were a little more generous with GOEs than the Japanese judges -- that seems to be the whole difference.

let`s talk said:

But Aranjuez is not 'cool'. It's full of passion and sensual stuff.

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I disagree entirely. Chan did a very cool Aranjuez. He was the soul of cool.

Just because guitars are strumming away doesn't mean you have to tear your heart out of your chest.

Bluebonnet said:

You think that was the best quality in skating skills? Think harder! That's actually the basic of it.

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You're putting words in my mouth. What I said was: Keeping an extended edge is a skill that Chan has not demonstrated or has been reluctant to demonstrate. It made me wonder if it will expose his weakness or not. The skill sounds basic and simple, but it is also the time to show edge control, posture and interpretation skill. From all these years of watching figure skating, I've seen incidents where elite skaters slightly wobbled while keeping a simple, long edge at a slow speed. "Ha, exposed!"--that's what came to my mind when I saw it.

As a pianist, I know vividly that some simple messages even a child can play can sometimes be the most challenging. It is the time when there are no quick fingers (or feet in skating) to hide the technical and interpretation skills, the time when a pianist's true colors are revealed.

skatinginbc said:

Selective footage? I gave all-inclusive footage. Chan fell 6 times and Dai only once during the GP series. Everyone can watch the footage and see if it is true for you to claim "Chan's always quick recovery without loss of choreography, unlike many other skaters including Takahashi."



Mocking (even though it is funny because it is true) is "not befitting this forum" and yet constant propaganda by sneakily putting unfounded ideas (e.g., "unlike many other skaters including Takahashi") here and there into people's mind is befitting? Well, what a hypocritical standard!

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There is nothing sneaky about saying openly Takahashi often takes a long time to recover from falls, which is nothing unique among even the best skaters. I brought it up as a comparison to Chan's quick recoveries from falls that are mocked in very self-satisfyingly hilarious ways while Takahashi was said to leave a perfect impression even with falls. However, I choose not to be dragged into ridiculing Takahashi by showing footages of his falls because he deserves to be respected for his excellence rather than being mocked for something every single skater does, falling.

You find any open statement that does not declare Takahashi perfect to be a secret agenda and propaganda, while you and other Chan haters delight in ridiculing and making derisive false claims about the current world champion. That I call a double and hypocritical standard. Such "clever" mocking fits in well with the juvenile ontd_skating crowd but thankfully is not so common in GS.

I will keep myself very happy that way if I can get paid that kind of money--I mean, your job in the financial industry as you once said. It must be very demanding, involving long hours of chatting with business partners on the internet.

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You know nothing about my life, work, or financial situation. Make any assumption and react to it as you wish. I don't care what lives in your mind rent free.

You are good at playing with words, Skatefiguring, but you cannot even produce a footage from this year's GP series to prove "Chan's always quick recovery without loss of choreography, unlike many other skaters including Takahashi". The attempt of selling unfounded ideas here and there and little by little is a classic case of propaganda.

SkateFiguring said:

You find any open statement that does not declare Takahashi perfect to be a secret agenda and propaganda.

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That's not true. For instance, wallylutz thought Chan's 4T3T deserved more bonus points than Dai's. I didn't say a word against it although I disagreed with it and could have easily used Bluebonnet's post #31 as evidence to argue otherwise. Your attempt of painting a negative image about characters of opponents is another classic case of propaganda.

SkateFiguring said:

You know nothing about my...work.

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But I do know something about how the "financial industry" operates. I have an MBA after all.

wallylutz said:

Daisuke Takahashi

1. 4T+3T +1
2. 3A +2
3. FSSp4 +2
4. 3Lz +2
5. CCSp2 +1
6. SlSt3 +2
7. CCoSp4 +2

SS: 8.50 TR: 8.00 PE: 9.25 CH: 9.50 IN: 9.50

TES = 48.90 PCS = 44.75 Total = 93.65


Patrick Chan

1. 4T+3T +2
2. 3A +2
3. CCoSp3 +2
4. 3Lz +2
5. FSSp4 +2
6. CCSp4 +2
7. SlSt4 +3

SS: 9.25 TR: 8.75 PE: 9.50 CH: 9.25 IN: 9.50

TES = 52.50 PCS = 46.25 Total = 98.75


Conclusion: If both skate clean in the SP, without a doubt, the advantage clearly goes to Patrick Chan who is technically superior in every way over Daisuke Takahashi who is clearly past his prime as a competitive skater.

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You are a bad judge. Congratulations. You not only hand out incorrect scores but also state that a skater who is scoring over 90 in the SP, and has scored their highest ever in the SP twice this season (and completed a Quad-Triple for only the second time ever in their career), is past their prime. Get off the bench and go study more. You do not pass the class.

+2 for the Camel and Combination spins of Patrick Chan is nonsense. The speed and positions are average and they do not go to the music in any particularly great way. Takakhashi should definitely not be getting a +2 for that flying sit either.

+2 on Patrick's Quad when it was 1/4 turn short is incorrect scoring as well.

I would not give Takahashi higher than 9.0 for any of the components with that performance; there were little reservations here and there where the performance could have been fuller and the choreography was not perfectly conceived to the music. The 9.5's you give Patrick on the Choreography and Interpretation components are much too high. The program conceptually could go quite a bit further with the initial idea and the movements do not utilize the full extent of the body as they could. That a high of a score for Interpretation is especially not deserved when NONE of the spins are choreographed specifically to the music. The positions he uses are all about gaining the most technical points he possibly can, not about hitting accents or creating interesting shapes or translating sound into movement.

skatinginbc said:

You are good at playing with words, Skatefiguring, but you cannot even produce a footage from this year's GP series to prove "Chan's always quick recovery without loss of choreography, unlike many other skaters including Takahashi". The attempt of selling unfounded ideas here and there and little by little is a classic case of propaganda.

That's not true. For instance, wallylutz thought Chan's 4T3T deserved more bonus points than Dai's. I didn't say a word against it although I disagreed with it and could have easily used Bluebonnet's post #31 as evidence to argue otherwise. Your attempt of painting a negative image about characters of proponents is another classic case of propaganda.

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My words mean nothing in their competition results. Two great skaters duel it out on ice and judges have deemed Chan to be superior to Takahashi this GP season, the period your specify, in direct competitions. Since you invited people to play judges on their separate Nationals SP performances, why don't you start a thread to compare their separate Nationals LP performances? It would be a perfect opportunity to demonstrate how Takahashi leaves a perfect impression with falls. I don't believe anybody here has called Chan perfect even when he skates clean and smashes records.

Buttercup said:

Jonathan Cassar for the win!

I mean, we are discussing spread eagles, right?

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Jonathan does do a beautiful spread eagle. I also like Michelle's split falling leaf jump.

Blades of Passion said:

You are a bad judge. Congratulations. You not only hand out incorrect scores but also state that a skater who is scoring over 90 in the SP, and has scored their highest ever in the SP twice this season (and completed a Quad-Triple for only the second time ever in their career), is past their prime. Get off the bench and go study more. You do not pass the class.

+2 for the Camel and Combination spins of Patrick Chan is nonsense. The speed and positions are average and they do not go to the music in any particularly great way. Takakhashi should definitely not be getting a +2 for that flying sit either.

+2 on Patrick's Quad when it was 1/4 turn short is incorrect scoring as well.

I would not give Takahashi higher than 9.0 for any of the components with that performance; there were little reservations here and there where the performance could have been fuller and the choreography was not perfectly conceived to the music. The 9.5's you give Patrick on the Choreography and Interpretation components are much too high. The program conceptually could go quite a bit further with the initial idea and the movements do not utilize the full extent of the body as they could. That a high of a score for Interpretation is especially not deserved when NONE of the spins are choreographed specifically to the music. The positions he uses are all about gaining the most technical points he possibly can, not about hitting accents or creating interesting shapes or translating sound into movement.

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I cant believe I am saying this but I agree with everything you said here. Well except that I think Takahashi does deserve the performance scores the OP gave him.

SkateFiguring said:

Since you invited people to play judges on their separate Nationals SP performances, why don't you start a thread to compare their separate Nationals LP performances?

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For me, it is fun to compare the short because both performed relatively clean. Isn't that an obvious reason? If you are so interested in comparing the LP, why don't you create a thread yourself? Do you have to constantly paint your opponents in a negative way, another classic case of propaganda?

skatinginbc, your choice of the grand prix as opposed to include Nationals is selection bias, most definitely. Chan had two clean skates at his Nationals. Dai had three falls in his long. From that, one might come to the conclusion that Dai falls a lot more than Chan.

As for an extended, controlled single edge, can you give me a time frame (number of seconds) so that I can check. And also a skater who does a COP with that kind of edge/moves in the field so I can see what you mean, exactly?

^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lRMiRgKnE8

Oh, wait. You said CoP. Sorry.

ImaginaryPogue said:

skatinginbc, your choice of the grand prix as opposed to include Nationals is selection bias.

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You have a point and very good one. All I thought of was selecting this season's all ISU competitions so far. I thought excluding exhibitions, ice shows, and regional competitions would be fair. Nonetheless, even if we include Dai's three falls in nationals, Chan still out-fell him this season in terms of number and in terms of taking the longest time for recovery.
Dai's worst fall: Japanese National LP (www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQLygc9BLlA&feature=related) 4:06 - 4:10 ==> 4 seconds for recovery.
Chan's worst fall: TEB LP (www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK8GrUHrqLw) 1:40 - 1:45 ==> 5 seconds for recovery.

ImaginaryPogue said:

As for an extended, controlled single edge, can you give me a time frame (number of seconds) so that I can check. And also a skater who does a COP with that kind of edge/moves in the field so I can see what you mean, exactly?

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Examples:
Demonstrating the ability of performing a wide variety of field moves: Jeffrey Buttle 2006 Torino Olympic LP (www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6cqiR9oLi8&feature=related).
0:41 => spiral-like
1:26 - 1:34 => spread eagle.
2:04 => innovate move I don't know what it is called.
2:10 - 2:13 => I don't know what that is, either.
2:42 - 2:46 => I don't know the name of the move, but to me it is the most memorable moment of the program.
3:27 - 3:29 => Ina Bauer
They all look simple but it the time that a skater showcases the lines, interpretation talents and the steady edges (No wobbling in the basic moves).

Demonstrating the ability of holding one edge or position for an extensive period: Jeffrey Buttle 2009 Japan Open (www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc6IEA-hMYU).
1:11 - 1:19 ==> I don't know what it is called.
It was held so long that he could have been easily exposed if he had a poor posture, insincere facial expression, or lack of control of his body or blade.

Hehe, now I have revealed my true colors--I'm a big fan of Jeffrey Buttle.

Mathman said:

^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lRMiRgKnE8

Oh, wait. You said CoP. Sorry.

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This is a decent example under COP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RZ8Xoh1ghw#t=4m039s



I definitely agree with SF that there is a double standard when it comes to Chan falling vs Takahashi falling. It's pretty obvious to me who keeps his butt on the ice longer after taking a spill yet Chan is the one who gets all the flack for having distracting falls.

skatinginbc said:

Your conclusion contradicts your assessment. Stojko pointed out spins as ones of Chan's weakness. Apparently there is some truth in it.

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I don't think you have any understanding what Levels actually mean for spins in Figure Skating. First of all, you are attempting to compare the Levels on the CCoSp of two skaters from two different competitions who have different standards (national) and given out by two completely different panels. I have seen you post for a while and without a doubt, you are very smart person and well versed in stats, so surely enough, you can see the danger of making such comparison even assuming the grading here are directly comparable, which - they aren't at all, just common sense here, no need to be a skating expert of anykind. But more importantly, Levels in Spins as defined by the ISU has nothing to do with the quality or the execution of the spins. Whatever Elvis Stojko may have said or not said about spins being a weakness of Chan is completely irrelevant. On a side note, I don't recall Stojko ever say anything close to what you attributed to him, so if you could please provide the source of your information, that will be greatly appreciated for a follow up discussion. Levels in Spins, as called by the Technical Panel is determined by the number of Features that the skater achieves during a given spin. The following is a list of the Features, as defined by the ISU, for the purpose of determining Levels in Spins:

1) A difficult variation in a basic or (for spin combinations only) in an intermediate position
2) Another difficult variation in a basic position which must be significantly different from
the first one and: ● spin in one position with change of foot – on different foot than the first one ● spin combination without change of foot – in different position than the first one ● spin combination with change of foot – on different foot and in different position than the
first one
3) Change of foot executed by jump
4) Backward entrance/Difficult variation of flying entrance/Landing on the same foot as
take-off or changing foot on landing in a Flying Sit Spin
5) Clear change of edge in sit (only from backward inside to forward outside) or camel 6) All 3 basic positions on both feet
7) Both directions immediately following each other in sit or camel spin
8) At least 8 rev. without changes in pos./variation, foot or edge (camel, sit, layback,
difficult upright), counts twice if repeated on another foot

In other words, some of the greatest spinners in the world like Lucinda Ruh could very well get Level 1 on her spins if she does not follow the ISU guidelines simply for not having enough revolutions on each foot or the change of edge not being clear enough or the change of foot wasn't executed with a jump.

While the Tech Panel calls the Levels, it is the Judges who determine the quality of execution. In other words, to get a truer sense of the quality of a spin element, the average GOE is actually a more relevant indicator than the Level, which represents a validation of how many Features were met in that spin, not the quality of the spin. I am sorry you never understood this important difference and continued to run around and cite the difference in the Level as a "weakness" or any of its variation and synonyms.

Finally, when I said "technically superior in every way", I certainly didn't say "technically superior in every element". You then claimed I contradicted myself by citing the Level on one Spin, which was called by Technical Panel - not the judges. A judge may very well feel an X spin was superior by awarding higher GOE to reflect that over a Y spin regardless of the Level assigned, which is outside the judge's control. Plus, if you really want to split hair, you could also point to the fact that both skaters receive mostly +2 from me, with few exceptions for most of their elements so how do I support my assertion that "Chan is technically superior in every way"? Well, the reality is the assignment of GOE also follows a similar "Features" based bullet point system. Because there are only 3 choices for positive GOE, if a skater's element falls into a lower range of +2 zone vs. another who is on the high end of the +2 zone but insufficient for +3, they will all end up with +2. It doesn't mean that the quality of their elements the same, that would be an incorrect inference. You could say they are more or less comparable but when adding all 7 to 13 elements together, the overall GOE tend to reflect the difference that is difficult to illustrate in each and every single element on its own. Hence a skater who is technically superior overall or in every way, will still end up with a much higher TES even when the Base Value of their elements are almost identical, as is the case here between these two skaters.

Since you are Chinese, I have 4 words for you to take away which I hope you are well versed enough in your own culture to understand, otherwise what a shame: 班門弄斧

Think about this, before you post again next time.

skatinginbc said:

Mocking (even though it is funny because it is true) is "not befitting this forum" and yet constant propaganda by sneakily putting unfounded ideas (e.g., "unlike many other skaters including Takahashi") here and there into people's mind is befitting? Well, what a hypocritical standard!

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Just like some like to accumulate Chan's falls, from 2 to 4 to 6 to 10....and people actually believe.

periperi said:

It's pretty obvious to me who keeps his butt on the ice longer after taking a spill.

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That's actually a logical argument because you defined what constituted distraction: keeping one's butt on the ice. So under that definition, whoever keeps his butt on the ice the longest is the most distractive. With that definition, some of Chan's falls would not be considered a "fall". Unfortunately that definition is not what ISU goes by and not necessarily agreed upon by every one.

Boeing787 said:

Bluebonnet, don't waste your time. As Patrick once said, what matters is how the judges think.

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I feel like sometimes skatinginbc likes to create some drama for amusement. I wonder what's next to criticize about Chan. First, his falls. Then his artistry. Now, his non-creative choreography.