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Thread: Triple Lutz and flip jumps in the Ladies SP

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    Triple Lutz and flip jumps in the Ladies SP

    I've noticed a sharp drop in the inclusion of both the triple Lutz and triple flip jumps in the Ladies SP. Is this a consequence of the edge rule? Of COP not rewarding adequately difficult jumps, so there are no incentives to risk? Or is it because of a general decline in the discipline? A positive development - we see more frequently clean SPs.

    Europeans
    2006 = 10 skaters attempted both the jumps
    2007 = 9 skaters
    2008 = 9 skaters
    2009 = 9 skaters
    2010 = 6 skaters
    2011 = 0 skaters (!!!)
    2012 = 0 skaters (!!!)


    As of this season's WGP the two jumps were attempted just by Sotnikova, Gao, Marrocco, and on some occasions by Wagner, Flatt, Czisny and Suzuki. That is, in 2012 in the whole World just 7 girls (just 3 of them constantly) are attempting both the two jumps in the SP, while in 2006 just in Europe there were 10 girls attempting them.

    Even in 1999 and 2000 there were more skaters attempting both the jumps. Isn't this an involution?
    Last edited by gio; 01-27-2012 at 03:54 PM.

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    Maybe the American and European women aren't that good of skaters ... the baton is being passed to other countries ...

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    It is hard to think of any lady (on any continent ) who has a truly reliable edge on both jumps.

    A skater loses only 0.2 points in base value by doing a loop instead of a flip, so maybe a skater with a satisfactory Lutz but a shaky flip would come out ahead with 3Lz+2T, 3Lo and 2A in the SP.

    Caroline Zhang just did a 3Lo-3Lo as her combination in the SP as U.S. nationals. A whopping 10.2 points (if completely rotated), compared to 10.0 points for a 3Lz-3T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    It is hard to think of any lady (on any continent ) who has a truly reliable edge on both jumps.

    A skater loses only 0.2 points in base value by doing a loop instead of a flip, so maybe a skater with a satisfactory Lutz but a shaky flip would come out ahead with 3Lz+2T, 3Lo and 2A in the SP.

    Caroline Zhang just did a 3Lo-3Lo as her combination in the SP as U.S. nationals. A whopping 10.2 points (if completely rotated), compared to 10.0 points for a 3Lz-3T.
    My homie did it last night, 3Lutz-2T, 3 Flip. Both ratified with correct edges.
    It's not that hard, Mathman.

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    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    It absolutely is the stricter edge calls. With the deductions involved, it's not worth it, as others have pointed out.

    However, it's interesting to consider that a lot of these ladies will nonetheless attempt both a 3flip and a 3lutz in their FS. The reason there? Even with an edge deduction, it still pads out the jumping passes better than a double jump would in the scores.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    It is hard to think of any lady (on any continent ) who has a truly reliable edge on both jumps.
    Who are the female skaters (past and present) that have showed a reliable edge on both jumps? Kwan, Butyrskaya, Malinina, Ito, Harding, Kerrigan, Yamaguchi. They didn't lip or flutz, right?

    Caroline Zhang just did a 3Lo-3Lo as her combination in the SP as U.S. nationals. A whopping 10.2 points (if completely rotated), compared to 10.0 points for a 3Lz-3T.
    However, I think the 3Lo-3Lo combo is more difficult than a 3Lz-3T, considering the injuries involved with it and considering the small number of skaters that attempted it. But is worth just 0.2 points more.

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    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gio View Post
    Who are the female skaters (past and present) that have showed a reliable edge on both jumps? Kwan, Butyrskaya, Malinina, Ito, Harding, Kerrigan, Yamaguchi. They didn't lip or flutz, right?

    The actual list is smaller than that. Kwan had a mild Flutz. Ito Lipped. Few would have survived the scrutiny of today's tech panel. Even Yuna's flat-edged Flip got called "e" occasionally in the '09 season, ruining her confidence in that jump.

    However, I think the 3Lo-3Lo combo is more difficult than a 3Lz-3T, considering the injuries involved with it and considering the small number of skaters that attempted it. But is worth just 0.2 points more.
    Difficulty varies by skater. Zhang's strength is the triple Loop, and she can do a pretty decent 3Lo+3Lo combo, but she'd fall hard on a 3Lz+3T combo. What makes that combo difficult is the second jump--and there have been many more 3Lz+3Lo attempts than 3Lo+3Lo attempts.
    Last edited by Krislite; 01-29-2012 at 10:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    The actual list is smaller than that. Kwan had a mild Flutz. Ito Lipped. Few would have survived the scrutiny of today's tech panel. Even Yuna's flat-edged Flip got called "e" occasionally in the '09 season, ruining her confidence in that jump.



    Difficulty varies by skater. Zhang's strength is the triple Loop, and she can do a pretty decent 3Lo+3Lo combo, but she'd fall hard on a 3Lz+3T combo. What makes that combo difficult is the second jump--and there have been many more 3Lz+3Lo attempts than 3Lo+3Lo attempts.
    But Czisny has been toying with 3Lz+3T. She hasn't mastered it, but if she really spent a lot of time working on it, she just might.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    The Lutz is Czisny's money jump. If she were allowed to do three Lutzes, instead of two Lutzes and a 'lip, she would be in business.

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    While I understand these are the 2 biggest point getters most ladies can perform, they both take off from same foot with a toe pick assist. I could see a rational for requiring one of your non axel triples to be an edge jump - ie a loop or salchow and one be a toe pick assisted jump - toe loop, flip or lutz

  11. #11
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    But it's not required one be an edge jump. The ladies who get "e" calls but have reliable 3Lo have moved to that as the jump out of steps since the points for that pass will be higher after the GOE deduction for the edge

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    Korobeynikova has 3F-3T in her SP all this season. Sometimes well, sometimes fall after 3T. But she does this combo every time, never changes .
    Last edited by Lilyvalley; 01-30-2012 at 08:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    It is hard to think of any lady (on any continent ) who has a truly reliable edge on both jumps.
    Of the current Ladies:

    Rachael Flatt (USA)
    Elizaveta Tuktamisheva (RUS)
    Polina Korobeynikova (RUS)
    Yretha Silethe (FRA)
    Akiko Suzuki (JPN) ???

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Gracie Gold has good edges on both flip and lutz without underrotation, and with the ability to tack a 3T on either, which is perhaps why US fans get so excited about her, since it is so rare in this country.

    SP,Tallinn JGP
    3F3T
    3Lz

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/jg..._SP_Scores.pdf
    LP in Taillin JGP
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/jg..._FS_Scores.pdf
    3Lz3T
    3F
    3Lz

    No edge calls. Overall positive GOE.

    At US Nationals also

    SP
    http://www.usfigureskating.org/leade...6/results.html
    3F3T
    3Lz (0 GOE)

    LP
    http://www.usfigureskating.org/leade...6/results.html
    3Lz3T
    3Lz
    3F (0 GOE)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    What makes that combo difficult is the second jump--and there have been many more 3Lz+3Lo attempts than 3Lo+3Lo attempts.
    Have there? Do you mean number of skaters who have attempted each or are you also taking into account the number of times they have attempted?

    For 3Lo+3Lo I can think of
    Lipinski,
    Joanne Carter (maybe only once, nontelevised)
    S. Hughes (ditto)
    C. Zhang

    For 3Lz+3Lo
    Slutskaya
    Arakawa?
    Ando

    Kwan attempted it once but didn't come close

    I'm probably missing one or more for each of those combos


    Or did you mean 3Lz+3T? Definitely more attempts, and successes, at that one

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