Triple Lutz and flip jumps in the Ladies SP | Golden Skate

Triple Lutz and flip jumps in the Ladies SP

gio

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
I've noticed a sharp drop in the inclusion of both the triple Lutz and triple flip jumps in the Ladies SP. Is this a consequence of the edge rule? Of COP not rewarding adequately difficult jumps, so there are no incentives to risk? Or is it because of a general decline in the discipline? A positive development - we see more frequently clean SPs.

Europeans
2006 = 10 skaters attempted both the jumps
2007 = 9 skaters
2008 = 9 skaters
2009 = 9 skaters
2010 = 6 skaters
2011 = 0 skaters (!!!)
2012 = 0 skaters (!!!)


As of this season's WGP the two jumps were attempted just by Sotnikova, Gao, Marrocco, and on some occasions by Wagner, Flatt, Czisny and Suzuki. That is, in 2012 in the whole World just 7 girls (just 3 of them constantly) are attempting both the two jumps in the SP, while in 2006 just in Europe there were 10 girls attempting them.

Even in 1999 and 2000 there were more skaters attempting both the jumps. Isn't this an involution?
 
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brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Maybe the American and European women aren't that good of skaters ... the baton is being passed to other countries ...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It is hard to think of any lady (on any continent ;) ) who has a truly reliable edge on both jumps.

A skater loses only 0.2 points in base value by doing a loop instead of a flip, so maybe a skater with a satisfactory Lutz but a shaky flip would come out ahead with 3Lz+2T, 3Lo and 2A in the SP.

Caroline Zhang just did a 3Lo-3Lo as her combination in the SP as U.S. nationals. A whopping 10.2 points (if completely rotated), compared to 10.0 points for a 3Lz-3T.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
It is hard to think of any lady (on any continent ;) ) who has a truly reliable edge on both jumps.

A skater loses only 0.2 points in base value by doing a loop instead of a flip, so maybe a skater with a satisfactory Lutz but a shaky flip would come out ahead with 3Lz+2T, 3Lo and 2A in the SP.

Caroline Zhang just did a 3Lo-3Lo as her combination in the SP as U.S. nationals. A whopping 10.2 points (if completely rotated), compared to 10.0 points for a 3Lz-3T.

My homie did it last night, 3Lutz-2T, 3 Flip. Both ratified with correct edges. :cool:
It's not that hard, Mathman.
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
It absolutely is the stricter edge calls. With the deductions involved, it's not worth it, as others have pointed out.

However, it's interesting to consider that a lot of these ladies will nonetheless attempt both a 3flip and a 3lutz in their FS. The reason there? Even with an edge deduction, it still pads out the jumping passes better than a double jump would in the scores.
 

gio

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
It is hard to think of any lady (on any continent ;) ) who has a truly reliable edge on both jumps.

Who are the female skaters (past and present) that have showed a reliable edge on both jumps? Kwan, Butyrskaya, Malinina, Ito, Harding, Kerrigan, Yamaguchi. They didn't lip or flutz, right?

Caroline Zhang just did a 3Lo-3Lo as her combination in the SP as U.S. nationals. A whopping 10.2 points (if completely rotated), compared to 10.0 points for a 3Lz-3T.

However, I think the 3Lo-3Lo combo is more difficult than a 3Lz-3T, considering the injuries involved with it and considering the small number of skaters that attempted it. But is worth just 0.2 points more.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Who are the female skaters (past and present) that have showed a reliable edge on both jumps? Kwan, Butyrskaya, Malinina, Ito, Harding, Kerrigan, Yamaguchi. They didn't lip or flutz, right?


The actual list is smaller than that. Kwan had a mild Flutz. Ito Lipped. Few would have survived the scrutiny of today's tech panel. Even Yuna's flat-edged Flip got called "e" occasionally in the '09 season, ruining her confidence in that jump.

However, I think the 3Lo-3Lo combo is more difficult than a 3Lz-3T, considering the injuries involved with it and considering the small number of skaters that attempted it. But is worth just 0.2 points more.

Difficulty varies by skater. Zhang's strength is the triple Loop, and she can do a pretty decent 3Lo+3Lo combo, but she'd fall hard on a 3Lz+3T combo. What makes that combo difficult is the second jump--and there have been many more 3Lz+3Lo attempts than 3Lo+3Lo attempts.
 
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krenseby

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
The actual list is smaller than that. Kwan had a mild Flutz. Ito Lipped. Few would have survived the scrutiny of today's tech panel. Even Yuna's flat-edged Flip got called "e" occasionally in the '09 season, ruining her confidence in that jump.



Difficulty varies by skater. Zhang's strength is the triple Loop, and she can do a pretty decent 3Lo+3Lo combo, but she'd fall hard on a 3Lz+3T combo. What makes that combo difficult is the second jump--and there have been many more 3Lz+3Lo attempts than 3Lo+3Lo attempts.

But Czisny has been toying with 3Lz+3T. She hasn't mastered it, but if she really spent a lot of time working on it, she just might.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The Lutz is Czisny's money jump. If she were allowed to do three Lutzes, instead of two Lutzes and a 'lip, she would be in business. :yes:
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
While I understand these are the 2 biggest point getters most ladies can perform, they both take off from same foot with a toe pick assist. I could see a rational for requiring one of your non axel triples to be an edge jump - ie a loop or salchow and one be a toe pick assisted jump - toe loop, flip or lutz
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
But it's not required one be an edge jump. The ladies who get "e" calls but have reliable 3Lo have moved to that as the jump out of steps since the points for that pass will be higher after the GOE deduction for the edge
 

Lilyvalley

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Korobeynikova has 3F-3T in her SP all this season. Sometimes well, sometimes fall after 3T. But she does this combo every time, never changes .
 
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gio

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
It is hard to think of any lady (on any continent ;) ) who has a truly reliable edge on both jumps.

Of the current Ladies:

Rachael Flatt (USA)
Elizaveta Tuktamisheva (RUS)
Polina Korobeynikova (RUS)
Yretha Silethe (FRA)
Akiko Suzuki (JPN) ???
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Gracie Gold has good edges on both flip and lutz without underrotation, and with the ability to tack a 3T on either, which is perhaps why US fans get so excited about her, since it is so rare in this country.

SP,Tallinn JGP
3F3T
3Lz

http://www.isuresults.com/results/jgpest2011/jgpest2011_JuniorLadies_SP_Scores.pdf
LP in Taillin JGP
http://www.isuresults.com/results/jgpest2011/jgpest2011_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf
3Lz3T
3F
3Lz

No edge calls. Overall positive GOE.

At US Nationals also

SP
http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2012/68266/results.html
3F3T
3Lz (0 GOE)

LP
http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2012/68266/results.html
3Lz3T
3Lz
3F (0 GOE)
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
What makes that combo difficult is the second jump--and there have been many more 3Lz+3Lo attempts than 3Lo+3Lo attempts.

Have there? Do you mean number of skaters who have attempted each or are you also taking into account the number of times they have attempted?

For 3Lo+3Lo I can think of
Lipinski,
Joanne Carter (maybe only once, nontelevised)
S. Hughes (ditto)
C. Zhang

For 3Lz+3Lo
Slutskaya
Arakawa?
Ando

Kwan attempted it once but didn't come close

I'm probably missing one or more for each of those combos


Or did you mean 3Lz+3T? Definitely more attempts, and successes, at that one
 

champs

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Have there? Do you mean number of skaters who have attempted each or are you also taking into account the number of times they have attempted?

For 3Lo+3Lo I can think of
Lipinski,
Joanne Carter (maybe only once, nontelevised)
S. Hughes (ditto)
C. Zhang

For 3Lz+3Lo
Slutskaya
Arakawa?
Ando

Kwan attempted it once but didn't come close

I'm probably missing one or more for each of those combos

Amelie Lacoste attempted 3Lo-3Lo at a JGP back in 2005 and at Skate Canada in 2010.

For 3lz-3lo we all know Sotnikova has attempted several times.
 
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FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Gracie Gold has good edges on both flip and lutz without underrotation, and with the ability to tack a 3T on either, which is perhaps why US fans get so excited about her, since it is so rare in this country.
At US Nationals also

SP
http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2012/68266/results.html
3F3T
3Lz (0 GOE)

I can't believe I called that one. I remember coming back from the Jr. Ladies SP, and went online and said I was underwhelmed by Gracie's jumps. I said I wouldn't give her Lutz any positive GOE, not enough height, no flow coming out, etc... Looks like the judges agreed. I guess we're all conditioned to girls not having true lutz, so when one has one, suddenly it's a big deal.

Of all the girls competing, the one with the best lutz, and very consistent at it, is Miki Ando.
Agnes' lutz is also impressive.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Ando doesn't have a flip, though, it gets an "e" call. Agnes' flip is less than consistent as well
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Ando doesn't have a flip, though, it gets an "e" call. Agnes' flip is less than consistent as well

Ando lipped prior to 2008. She fixed her flip after 2008.
The few times she put it out, she never got the "e" call.

World 2009 SP.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2009/wc09_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

2010 Cup of Russia SP
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2009/wc09_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

2010 Cup of China SP
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2010/gpchn10_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

2010 GPF SP
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1011/gpf1011_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

After that, she didn't put the flip in the SP anymore. Required steps prior to the flip caused a lot of problem for her, especially for a jump that she relearned the correct technique.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Let me clarify, I meant she no longer included it in the SP when the SoV was changed...
 
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