Senior Pairs Free Skate

[FlattFan]

You think John Coughlin is a better partner than Rockne Brubaker?
Sorry if I misspelled the names.

FlattFan I disagree with you, I think Rockne is better than John. Today was an off day for him...Mary Beth proved herself today, and it was a BIG step forward for them. They have a lot of room for growth (and I mean that positively since she's so new to pairs...they will get there). Mary Beth definitely still has the cutesy thing going on, but the improvements they made in one year are remarkable. Caydee and John will always be competitive for as long as they continue, but I have doubts about their ability to really be polished and a truly complete package of a pairs team.

I do. I've seen Rockne and his previous partner fell apart too many times. With Mary Beth, he also had his fair share of bringing them down.
John is more consistent, has more power, presents his partners quite well. That's what you need as a male pair partner, someone who's strong, who doesn't stand out too much, who meshes with his partner.
In term of sheer strength and tricks and consistency, John is better than Rockne.
Like I said, D/C aren't polished, their lines aren't attractive, their packaging is cheap, she looks cheap and crazy with those makeup. What they have is power and presence. They worked the crowd into a frenzy. I didn't care for them, and I was standing cheering by the end. They worked real hard for that one.

[dorispulaski]

I totally loved Donlan & Speroff's program. I so hope they can learn to land at least double axels and 3T's. On IN, they seemed to just have huge speed. Did they in person Flattfan? Everything seemed so BIG. I think they got rooked on PCS.

I also loved Cain and Reagan.

The rest not so much, but D&C attacked their program. I foresee that they will manage top 10 at Worlds, if they skate like this. Top 6? Not without a lot of falling and multiple falling.

[icebeauty]

I feel badly that Yankowskas had to miss the season and hope she can find a partner. She's on the tall side for pairs, which will make it tougher. She has a gorgeous look to her on the ice. However, I don't think her and John could have gone much further. With Denney, John is already doing much tougher programs than he probably ever could have done with Yankowskas-- harder jumps, harder throws later in the programs, more difficult lifts, etc. It had already taken Yankowskas/Coughlin several years to get where they reached in terms of technical competence, and they still had quite a ways to go. They were behind other teams at this level, for sure, even nationally. For instance, a throw triple sal in the short program puts you in a hole. The beautiful quality of Caitlin's skating made up for a lot of the technical deficiencies, but that can only go so far. If John wants to skate with his alleged girlfriend, who are we to say he is wrong for doing that. If Denney/Coughlin could improve the quality of their lifts, I'd actually find them a very watchable team.

I agree with everything you've said here. The good thing is that even though she didn't have a partner all season, Caitlin continued to train, which is good. I think she mentioned to IN in one of the recent interviews/blogs that she's been taking the singles tests to give her something to do (I doubt she'll actually make the switch), but that does means if she finds the right partner, they could end up doing tougher technical content then she had with John.

And yes, if Caydee and John polish off their lines, especially in their lifts, they will be a very watchable and exciting team to watch. But I seriously don't understand how Caydee has gotten away with those positions for 3 years already (I'll give her a pass for the 2009-2010 season...), also if you watch their LP performance closely, you'll see that John actually tries to stretch and point his toes (look at their sbs sit spin, for example)...Caydee doesn't even look like she's trying, which is what really bothers me.

[Nadine]

I re-watched my fav pair Donlan & Speroff's programs again on IN, and though I see improvements from last year, like in speed (still need to work more on it though) & lifts & positions, I'm sincerely worried about their sbs jumps, especially during their FS. I mean even the Junior Pair Teams did 2axels, all of them, even the lower-ranked ones, and the top ones did sbs triple jumps as well. However, what really helps D&S alot is their split-triple-twist and their fabulous throw triple jumps per usual. BUT, if they want to really challenge for a Top 2 placement, let alone 3rd, they need those sbs jumps, which has always been Gretchen's nemesis, unfortunately. They got super lucky this year with C&S's implosion during the FS, otherwise they would have been 5th.

Seriously, Gretchen doing a 1A during the FS is novice level (she won the 2007 Ladies Intermediate Title with a 1A, that was 5 yrs. ago!). I love their skating so much which is why I'm pointing it out. I do have to give them props for the SP though, both landing sbs 3Ts, though they were deemed slightly UR, everything else was perfect. But only doing 2Ts & 1As (Andrew did a big 2A btw) in the FS was glaringly below everybody else, let alone Juniors.

That said, they have been improving. Here's a breakdown of what they've done this past year per my notes:

2011 US Nationals ~ SP = gorgeous split-3-twist, Huge Perfect throw 3S, sbs 2As (hers perfect, his scratchy landing); LP = beautiful split-3-twist, sbs 3Ts (extra turn by her, but done), sbs 2As (fall by her but landed)/2T, Gorgeous Perfect Huge throw 3S, nice throw 3T (slight 2foot).

2011 Indy Challenge ~ SP = fall on sbs 3Ts by both (plus hers UR), near perfect huge throw 3S at end of program, split-3-twist was huge & gorgeous, as well as their lifts.

2011 Liberty Competition ~ LP = new fancy lift & carry into split-3-twist, fall on sbs 3Ts by both (plus hers UR), fall on sbs 2A by her (his huge & perfect)/2T, slight 2foot on throw 3R, slight 2foot on 3S, and missed pair lift by her before trying again. Worst outing.


Actually jump-wise D&S did better at 2011 Nationals, but they improved in everything else this year ~ speed, positions, lifts, et al.

Besides jumps, I'm wondering what else they can do to improve their score? Suggestions anyone? Hmmm, I'm thinking upgrade one of their throws to a throw 3F? and make their lifts a tad more complicated, as well as add arms overhead when doing the split-3-twist to make it more difficult. And of course speed can always be improved. Jmho.

Here's hoping with their pewter medal (yeah! ) they get an international this year, which they missed out on last year.

[FlattFan]

I totally loved Donlan & Speroff's program. I so hope they can learn to land at least double axels and 3T's. On IN, they seemed to just have huge speed. Did they in person Flattfan? Everything seemed so BIG. I think they got rooked on PCS.

I also loved Cain and Reagan.

My first time watching pairs live, so I had really no basis for comparison. I didn't watch the SP, didn't see any junior pairs.
I saw Cain and Reagan and I thought they were quite good.
Then I saw Donlan & Speroff, and thought Cain and Reagan were just average. This was good. Much better. They aren't slow. They had about the same speed as Cain and Reagan but Cain and Reagan covered the ice just a hair better. The top 3 teams are faster than them with D/C the fastest. They are a bit faster than Marissa and Simon.
I thought their PCS would be higher, and was surprised they only got 2 points or so above Cain and Reagan in PCS. I would put them 4-5 points above Cain and Reagan.

D/C had the best performance of the night, but D/S had the best programs of the night.

Between D/C and D/S, D/S should win CH, IN. D/C win SS, TR, and win big on PE.

[Nadine]

Ah, I love your invaluable comments, FlattFan, throughout this entire competition, much much appreciated!

My only wish now is that D&S skate in or near Washington State sometime, even over in Canada, which is only 2 hrs. away from Seattle, same goes for Oregon. Lol, this is why I was able to go to not only the Olympics, but Skate America as well. I don't fly, though I do take the train if need be.

[FlattFan]

Thanks Nadine. I appreciate that.

[blue_idealist]

Oh, so Donlan and Speroff don't do SBS triples? That explains why NBC chacked them, even though they finished 4th. I actually have never seen them except for some old youtube video, which I thought they were pretty good in.

[eyria]

Oh, so Donlan and Speroff don't do SBS triples? That explains why NBC chacked them, even though they finished 4th. I actually have never seen them except for some old youtube video, which I thought they were pretty good in.

I saw both Donlan/Speroff and Castelli/Shnapir at this year's Evening with Champions show at Harvard. Both teams impressed me quite a lot. Donlan/Speroff were very elegant, with lovely line and extension and great connection between them. As I recall, they did have trouble with either a SBS jump or a throw. With them, it was really the overall quality of their skating that stood out.

With Castelli/Shnapir, it was their speed, ice coverage, and big tricks. They did a huge throw triple Salchow at the show, as well as the lift with Marissa in the upside-down split position. They were showstoppers! Very exciting to watch, and boy, did they cover the ice easily. Seeing them live, they skate much "bigger" than Donlan/Speroff. Their lift went the length of the rink with absolutely no problem. I like C/S a lot, although they still need to improve, and was disappointed they didn't skate better yesterday. I'd been hoping they'd make the podium. I really hope they stay together and continue to push on, I think they have a lot of potential.

[dorispulaski]

I love both of those New England teams, and particularly love that they are different from the other teams, probably because they are not using the same coaches and choreographers that teams have been using for years.

Nadine, I'm thinking D&S could do a quad twist or a quad salchow throw to get more base value, given the huge height & distance they get on twists and throws. And they need to do the jumps, rather than pop them.

Both Takahashi / Tran and Sui / Han get credit for big tricks even when their jumps are no good; Pang & Tong often did not land their side by side jumps well. I think the US has to just get Donlan and Speroff out there.

And improving speed would be a good thing, always, although they looked quite fast on TV.

USFS needs to send them to a round of Senior B's so that they get some international credit. I don't think I've ever heard Peter Carruthers go crazy about a lower placed team as much as he did about Donlan & Speroff.

[Jammers]

John is almost as bad to watch as Caydee. His lines are dreadful and he's so stiff. Yes he has power and speed but not much else. Denny and Coughlin almost got beat by a team with a skater that only took up Pairs about 16 months ago. If Rockne doesn't screw up they would have won. At Worlds Coughlin and Denny's style won't be as appreciated.

[FlattFan]

John is almost as bad to watch as Caydee. His lines are dreadful and he's so stiff. Yes he has power and speed but not much else. Denny and Coughlin almost got beat by a team with a skater that only took up Pairs about 16 months ago. If Rockne doesn't screw up they would have won. At Worlds Coughlin and Denny's style won't be as appreciated.

The other partner in that team was part of the Jr. World Champ, national champ twice. D/C did not almost got beat. They won by a large margin. Even if Rockne didn't screw up his two jumping passes, it still would be a close one since all of their elements are inferior. It wasn't like Rockne and Mary Beth had better lutz twist, better DS, better pair spins, better SBS spins.

I don't think D/C can improve further from the LP they just put out. Now they need to keep the speed and the magic and the jumps and throws. I can see them only behind V/T, S/S, K/S. If they skate like that, they will handily beat the Canadians and even B/L if B messes up her jumps.

[tulosai]

The other partner in that team was part of the Jr. World Champ, national champ twice. D/C did not almost got beat. They won by a large margin. Even if Rockne didn't screw up his two jumping passes, it still would be a close one since all of their elements are inferior. It wasn't like Rockne and Mary Beth had better lutz twist, better DS, better pair spins, better SBS spins.

I don't think D/C can improve further from the LP they just put out. Now they need to keep the speed and the magic and the jumps and throws. I can see them only behind V/T, S/S, K/S. If they skate like that, they will handily beat the Canadians and even B/L if B messes up her jumps.

Did you see Duhamel/Radford's Canadian nationals skate? D/C will not beat them if both teams go clean.

I do agree they can handily beat Dube/Wolfe. I don't think they can possibly go ahead of B/L unless B/L mess up more than the jumps. B/L will kill them on PCS.

[DianaSelene]

The other partner in that team was part of the Jr. World Champ, national champ twice. D/C did not almost got beat. They won by a large margin. Even if Rockne didn't screw up his two jumping passes, it still would be a close one since all of their elements are inferior. It wasn't like Rockne and Mary Beth had better lutz twist, better DS, better pair spins, better SBS spins.

I don't think D/C can improve further from the LP they just put out. Now they need to keep the speed and the magic and the jumps and throws. I can see them only behind V/T, S/S, K/S. If they skate like that, they will handily beat the Canadians and even B/L if B messes up her jumps.

What B/L will lose in TES, they will have much higher PCS than D/C.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Yeah, B/L's PCS will be top five. And the GOES on the stuff they do well (twist, lifts) will help make up for base value loss.

D/R vs D/C is a tougher conundrum. D/R have a major base value advantage over D/C, the PCS will likely be close, and even if you give GOE to D/C, I don't think it's a walk in the park, like you describe FlattFan. 4CC will be interesting, though.