Senior Men's Free Skate

Mathman said:

To me, the present exchanges have a different vibe. There seems to be a more purposeful agenda in play, or something. I can't quite put my finger on it.

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I can, or I think I can.

Mathman said:

The funny thing is, I actually like the IJS just fine. But for some reason the fervor of the arguments put forward on its behalf always make me want to say the opposite. Go figure.

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So you understand being provoked.

Call me agent provocateur as you wish, I'm mostly provoked into refuting distortions of facts, non debatable facts.

As for agents provocateur, we are used to posts along the lines, "I just love Yu-na Kim to pieces. She is so wonderful!"

Next poster: "I can't stand her. She lips her flips and Mao is prettier."

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I enjoy people enjoy their idols, with all the and they want. They are entitled to their feelings. I am entitled to mine and find double standard to be told to stop mentioning my favorite for whom I have never posted a single or or made extreme proclamations. Mostly I defend.

To me, the present exchanges have a different vibe. There seems to be a more purposeful agenda in play, or something. I can't quite put my finger on it.

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I'll tell you exactly what my agenda is as a "pro-Chan Agent Provateur": to refute nonsense and myths, either established or being built. Unlike jettasian, I don't call out intentions and disses of his artistry as these are highly personal and debatable. But when people keep saying he wins all the times with big margins with multiple falls and is the only one to do so because of politics, I challenge them to back it up with facts, they can't. Or I bring out the facts myself. Annoying, I know. But I am provoked.

As for rebuttal of Jason Brown comparison which has been popular these days, it's another case of myth building and fact reversal I find it hard not to refute. I would have no objection to comparing their skating skills, and I have compared young skaters to Chan myself. No, Chan is always brought up as a late bloomer who didn't has 3A at 17, just like Brown, or even that he didn't have them till around 20. The idea of Chan being a late bloomer is so absurdly contrary to reality, and he did have 3A excellent enough to win international Senior events and the Canadian championships at 17, and became Worlds silver medalist at 18. How does that compare? It's like saying they are the same at 17 because they both have ponytails. Compare facts. Don't create disparaging non facts to boost your favorites. It's no favor to them.

I do the same for other skaters too, even into debatable subjective stuff when people are overly harsh on young skaters and writing them off. I do much less for others because 1) I don't have as much fact based information about them as I have about the Canadian and World Champion; and more significantly, 2) there are much much fewer such distortions of facts, almost always with a negative bend, about anyone else, at least currently. Bashing, maybe; making up and spreading stuffs which then become accepted "facts" to be thrown about willy nilly, no. Talk about purposeful agenda!

Mathman said:

Not every mention of Patrick is an attack. What I was trying to show by the three pictures is the improvement that Patrick has made in this area in the last two years.

If you look at the pictures that I posted, in the ones from two years ago his hands do not add anything of artistic value to the pose. But in the third picture, from Malaguena, the one I labeled "yes!" -- they do.

As I said, i believe (from evidence like this, and from knowing something of Lori Nichol's methods), that Lori has worked with Patrick on this.

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I'd like to see some OTHER MEN's hands, and see how they differ from Chan's. I bet not much difference.

Those wishing to discuss Patrick Chan's hands or Johnny's rose wreaths should open a new thread in The Edge. The US Nationals Men's LP is not the place to do it. If you wish to discuss Patrick's hands solely, the Patrick Chan thread is a good place.

Johnny, in his guise as an IN commentator of the LP is fair game, as is the skating of any skater who competed in the Sr. Men's LP, in this thread. Johnny's past interviews or commentary at some other event are not fair game.

I have tried to find and unapprove the Chan, Johnny, starfish and rosewreath posts. I may have missed a few. If there are any left, please PM me and I'll remove them.

I think my next Christmas wreath will be fake roses trimmed out with starfish. No one but me will know what that is all about.

demarinis5 said:

I can put my finger on it, it's called the ignore button, works for me.

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Mods don't have that luxury, just like you can't ignore us, we can't ignore you

^^
Sorry Toni I forgot about the mods.

We enjoyed the men's programs. I was thrilled about Abbott & Rippon.
Im hoping Jeremy can keep it together for Worlds. Weve been rooting for him a long time. He is the male Alissa Czisny for us. Im hoping for brillance in March.
Im soo glad Adam finally medaled. I had been hoping for this since he was a Jr. YEA!!
We also enjoyed Jason, even with the falls.
Im sooo glad Stephen Carriere is back, shame about the back loading. Hopefully he will be injury free and move back up in the standings next season
Ross did well congrats to him for the Bronze.
Sad for Armin, his LP was very lackluster..I think it was the lack of the tracksuit hopefully the coaching change does him well
Dornbush needs to shake off this Nationals and regroup for next year.

Weir is coming back!! WooHoo!! and we loved his commentary on IN

I was hoping to watch the men's LP tonight on IN, but....time ran out and only watched two skaters. Since 4CC's is coming up, looks like I won't get to the men's rewarch or Ice dance for a while. But, what i wanted to say is this: I'm still over the moon about Jeremy's LP, it is simply breathtaking to me. I understand that we all have different tastes; but the flow and symmetry and shapes and the incredibly intimate quality of this program just takes me somewhere very special. I also rewatched Rippon; I think during the live broadcast I was so nervous that I didn't appreciate, really, just how well he did. Yes, the opening double...but overall, this is the most committed to a program I've seen Rippon in a long time. That he did what he did with a great short at nationals really makes me feel impressed. I've said all season that he just looks happy; I'm so glad that his nationals added to that.

Loved Weir's commentary - I think he did great in these two LP's that I saw/heard...and I gotta say it, just have him, we didn't need Tonia in this one (no offense, keep her with the ladies if people want).

Jeremy is out of 4CC due to his right hip injury. Dornbush is replacing him.

SkateFiguring said:

Jeremy is out of 4CC due to his right hip injury. Dornbush is replacing him.

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Oh no...it is serious? I do hope he recovers quickly and completely. Glad to see Dornbush have another comp this season, although somehow I thought Armin was next on the list.

dorispulaski said:

I think my next Christmas wreath will be fake roses trimmed out with starfish. No one but me will know what that is all about.

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Doris, I think I may have to make one of these for myself! Thanks for the laugh.

emma said:

Oh no...it is serious? I do hope he recovers quickly and completely. Glad to see Dornbush have another comp this season, although somehow I thought Armin was next on the list.

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I don't believe Armin was even listed as an alternate for 4CC, but I'm not sure. However 1st alternate was Dornbush.

Mathman said:

On skating boards nothing is lonelier than having fond memories of eras past. But then again, we old-timers will be dead soon anyway.

The funny thing is, I actually like the IJS just fine. But for some reason the fervor of the arguments put forward on its behalf always make me want to say the opposite. Go figure.

As for agents provocateur, we are used to posts along the lines, "I just love Yu-na Kim to pieces. She is so wonderful!"

Next poster: "I can't stand her. She lips her flips and Mao is prettier."

To me, the present exchanges have a different vibe. There seems to be a more purposeful agenda in play, or something. I can't quite put my finger on it.

Click to expand...

I used to find it easy to ignore the Yu Na bots (which is the closest parallel I can think of here), but the Chan Patrol refuses to let any critical comment about Chan in any thread go unchallenged. IMO they hound people, and the refusal to accept that some people simply don't like him quite as much as they do borders on obsession. They're doing absolutely nothing to increase my appreciation of Chan and a lot to decrease it, unfortunately -- and I was on the way to being a fan! I'm doing my best to tune them out and very much hope that I'll be able to watch Chan in the future without these stupid arguments echoing in my mind. He deserves that.

Some people seem to derive extra pleasure from that kind of argument about their favorite skater. I've never understood the appeal of it, but to each his own. Maybe I just don't understand the new judging system deeply enough to be able to use it in discussions. I agree that sometimes the arguments about a particular skater can get in the way of other people's appreciation of that skater. However, if a skater is really good, as Patrick is, eventually his skating will speak for itself. (Though I still haven't noticed Tonichelle becoming a Kwan fan....)

As for the American men, I didn't expect to be as excited and hopeful as I am after seeing them at Nationals. I had kind of given up on our chances internationally. Not that I expect someone to medal this year, considering the champions arrayed against us from Japan, Canada, and Russia. (And even Spain!) But our two guys could both do well enough to give us a third spot for next year, if they keep calm. Jeremy and Adam are certainly world-class skaters, and they have the potential to do us proud.

Olympia, you know I'm a big Jeremy fan, even when so many Americans were down on him last season. He and Oda are the two Men I root to win an over due World medal soon. Hopefully Jeremy will do it this year and Nobu next year. Let's hope he gets well and gets some training before Worlds. Skipping 4CC may just be necessary so as not to jeopardize the big contest.

That's what I'm hoping too, SF. I'd love to see Jeremy surprise even himself. And like you, I haven't given up on Oda. The only thing that makes him my second-favorite Japanese skater is that Daisuke is my first fave.

And now I have a new American favorite guy: I've just seen Nathan Chen skate for the first time. Wow, what a firecracker! And he's just TWELVE? Yipes. This kid just sweats charisma.

Olympia said:

(Though I still haven't noticed Tonichelle becoming a Kwan fan....)

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Maybe if I didn't fall asleep during her skating....

Spun Silver said:

but the Chan Patrol refuses to let any critical comment about Chan in any thread go unchallenged. IMO they hound people, and the refusal to accept that some people simply don't like him quite as much as they do borders on obsession. They're doing absolutely nothing to increase my appreciation of Chan and a lot to decrease it, unfortunately -- and I was on the way to being a fan! I'm doing my best to tune them out and very much hope that I'll be able to watch Chan in the future without these stupid arguments echoing in my mind. He deserves that.

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I think you should get the fact straight before bashing the "Chan Patrol". I can't speak for anyone but myself. I have NO PROBLEM that people dislike Chan. Hey, I have my dislikes too. And NOBODY is forcing anyone to like Chan. However, I DO HAVE AN ISSUE when people spreading lies and making false accusations about Chan. "Chan will win regardless" "Chan has 4 falls cushions" "Chan will win with 10 falls" "Chan's judges' pet" "Judges have hidden agendas" "Canada pressured the judges to inflate Chan's marks," to name a few. These remarks are insulting and baseless, and always coming from the same posters who lislike Chan. I dislike some skaters, but I don't go out and spread ridiculous remarks about those skaters.

And I'm NOT here to convince you to like Chan. Whether you enjoy his skate or not, it's you who decide.

Tonichelle said:

Maybe if I didn't fall asleep during her skating....

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Don't worry, Toni...I'll be fan enough for us both.

Are you going to get to watch the Pandora special, which apparently comes on right after the Nationals gala later today? (On the east coast, at least.) Supposedly Kulik is simply splendid on this, speaking of skaters that can keep one wide awake and riveted to the screen. (In my case at least.)

Kurt's in it, so yeah I will be recording it. Going to a movie with a friend. Forgot it was going to be on until this morning...