Caroline Zhang - Can She Regain Her Spot Among The Top US Ladies? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Caroline Zhang - Can She Regain Her Spot Among The Top US Ladies?

dwiggin3

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
While Czisny is an excellent example of what hard work and persistence can do, I think her case is rather unusual. She hasdthe innate ability to skate the way she currently is for some time, but lacked the focus to do it. In her case, mental and emotional maturity has allowed her to come into her own (along with excellent technique, an easy battle with the puberty-monster, very few injuries and the simple, yet critical love of skating). I don't this this is the case with Zhang. Unlike Czisny, Zhang's body has changed significantly through the process of natural maturation. Her technique is still not nearly as strong as Czisny's and I question her commitment/passion for the sport. Yes, she hung around during tough times, which is to be commended, but there is something more that is needed beside sheer willpower and love of sport - something Czisny and Kwan had/have in spades - this is quite rare in today's athlete's.

As far as Agnes is concerned, she has good technique but the fact she was seriously considering quiting the sport less than a year ago has me wondering if she has what it takes to hang on and go through the roller-coaster that is elite sports - figure skating specifically. Her strong performance at Nationals may serve as a catalyst to propel her forward but I remain skeptical that she will be in it for the long haul.

Darby
 

Andalusia

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
While Czisny is an excellent example of what hard work and persistence can do, I think her case is rather unusual. She hasdthe innate ability to skate the way she currently is for some time, but lacked the focus to do it. In her case, mental and emotional maturity has allowed her to come into her own (along with excellent technique, an easy battle with the puberty-monster, very few injuries and the simple, yet critical love of skating). I don't this this is the case with Zhang. Unlike Czisny, Zhang's body has changed significantly through the process of natural maturation. Her technique is still not nearly as strong as Czisny's and I question her commitment/passion for the sport. Yes, she hung around during tough times, which is to be commended, but there is something more that is needed beside sheer willpower and love of sport - something Czisny and Kwan had/have in spades - this is quite rare in today's athlete's.

As far as Agnes is concerned, she has good technique but the fact she was seriously considering quiting the sport less than a year ago has me wondering if she has what it takes to hang on and go through the roller-coaster that is elite sports - figure skating specifically. Her strong performance at Nationals may serve as a catalyst to propel her forward but I remain skeptical that she will be in it for the long haul.

Darby

Alissa's jumping technique isn't excellent in the slightest. It may not be as poor as Zhang's, but it sure ain't textbook (her loop and flip are prime examples). About the only really good thing about her jumping is that she doesn't flutz.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
To be honest i'm not if i want any of the Ladies from the last Olympic cycle to be on the team come Sochi. Certainly if every lady we send to Sochi is from the last 5-6 years not including relative newcomers like Agnes or Christina does not bode well for the US.
 

krenseby

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
I probably agree most with this comment. But one thing is clear- when you get as low as Zhang did last year, one of two things typically happens- you quit, or you fight like mad to turn things around. It's clear that Zhang has a lot of fight and motivation within her, and it remains to be seen how far that will end up taking her. I'm tempted to say she won't get there, but I didn't think Czisny would turn things around last year either...

To me, the question of whether Zhang will succeed or not depends on one and one thing only - the commitment to improving all aspects of her skating; stroking/edging, choreography/musicality, and spins. To be able to do that, you need to not only put in a lot of work as a skater, but you also need a team that can help you polish all of your skills. Frankly, it's much easier to quit than to put in all of that work.

Also, I wonder if her coach is as good as Brian Orser. If she was working with Brian, I'd have a lot of confidence in her future.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
To be honest i'm not if i want any of the Ladies from the last Olympic cycle to be on the team come Sochi. Certainly if every lady we send to Sochi is from the last 5-6 years not including relative newcomers like Agnes or Christina does not bode well for the US.

I will wait and see how Wagner and Czisny do at Worlds before casting a stronger opinion if I would like to see one or both make the team in Sochi or not. I wouldnt mind a team with 1 or 2 veterans out of the Wagner, Czisny, Nagasu, and maybe Zhang (Zhang by far the least likely though) combined with 1 or 2 of the younger skaters like Agnes, Gao, or Gold.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Also, I wonder if her coach is as good as Brian Orser. If she was working with Brian, I'd have a lot of confidence in her future.

I haven't seen Brian Orser develop or "fix" a skater yet. Kim came to him with all of her elements as did Gao and I haven't seen a huge leap in Gao's ability (in fact, I think her 2A has REGRESSED since going to Toronto). He was unable to fix Rippon's 3A mental hurdle which it appears Yuka and Jason HAVE done (maybe). Peter O is a BIG disciplinarian which is EXACTLY what she needs and Karen K is more motherly and takes the edge off Peter's tough love approach.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Also, I wonder if her coach is as good as Brian Orser. If she was working with Brian, I'd have a lot of confidence in her future.

As I understand it, Peter Oppegard has been coaching for a while and is rather good. I first noticed him when he coached Tiffany and Johnnie Stiegler, and they were excellent. Remember that Karen was coached by Frank Carroll, so her "apprenticeship" was with someone who was both strict about self-discipline and meticulous about technical aspects. Karen herself placed as high as fifth in Nationals. Judging by the progress Caroline has already made, they seem to know what they're doing.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
I haven't seen Brian Orser develop or "fix" a skater yet. Kim came to him with all of her elements as did Gao and I haven't seen a huge leap in Gao's ability (in fact, I think her 2A has REGRESSED since going to Toronto). He was unable to fix Rippon's 3A mental hurdle which it appears Yuka and Jason HAVE done (maybe). Peter O is a BIG disciplinarian which is EXACTLY what she needs and Karen K is more motherly and takes the edge off Peter's tough love approach.

Not sure if Yuka and Jason have done it. Rippon's 3A got worse. You have to see him live to see how slow he is, especially going into the 3A. He's telegraphing that jump for half a rink at glacier-moving speed. It looked ridiculous.
Gao hasn't improved, I agree.
I think Caroline's situation is fine, now. Looks like she made a lot of progress. It takes time to build up your reputation again.
 

PolymerBob

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
I think Caroline's situation is fine, now. Looks like she made a lot of progress. It takes time to build up your reputation again.

I am hoping she can start rebuilding some reputation in a few days. She has to finish top U.S. lady in Colorado Springs, earn a 2nd Grand Prix event, and show continued improvement in the fall.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I have said this from the beginning. It is NOT lack of fitness that prevents Caroline Zhang from improving her speed, it is a lack of good basic stroking technique. If she used her legs properly to push, and skated on clean strong edges, she would generate power. Irina Slutskaya was one of the strongest, fastest, most powerful skaters in the sport and she was not a skinny woman. Nor is Carolina Kostner a skinny waif. These are lovely strong women who generate their speed and power through technique, not because they are so skinny they look like children.

The height on her jumps is from a lack of spring. You need to go down deep into your knee to spring up into the jumps and she doesn't do that. Prior to puberty, girls have less bone density and have not accumulated their adult bone mass. One of friends calls it "having bird bones", which isn't exactly true either, but the effect is that those skinny little girls have very light bones, making getting height on their jumps easier. Post puberty, they're going to weight substantially more because of that bone mass accumulation so of course, both their centres of balance changes and they have a big weight gain which is not related to fitness or fat.

She doesn't need to work on core strength, lose weight or any of that stuff. She needs to continue to work on her stroking and her jump technique. That's the ONLY way she can achieve her skating goals.
 
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krenseby

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
It is NOT lack of fitness that prevents Caroline Zhang from improving her speed, it is a lack of good basic stroking technique. If she used her legs properly to push, and skated on clean strong edges, she would generate power.

I wonder whether it is difficult to adjust stroking technique. I would imagine so; I think Caroline HAS worked on learning to generate speed because it is evident that she made minor yet noticeable improvements in that area. However, since she still hasn't caught up to the speed of the other skaters, I assume that these changes are really hard for her to implement.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
It's not that hard to make adjustments to stroking technique, it's actually one of the easiest areas to make improvements quickly. One just needs to focus on it and be really committed to it (and I think this is the one area where she HASN'T truly committed, frankly, because she can "get by" with what she's got for the time being as long as she can rotate her jumps again).
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I have said this from the beginning. It is NOT lack of fitness that prevents Caroline Zhang from improving her speed, it is a lack of good basic stroking technique. If she used her legs properly to push, and skated on clean strong edges, she would generate power. Irina Slutskaya was one of the strongest, fastest, most powerful skaters in the sport and she was not a skinny woman. Nor is Carolina Kostner a skinny waif. These are lovely strong women who generate their speed and power through technique, not because they are so skinny they look like children.

I just love this first paragraph. It aligns with the point I was trying to make earlier when I said that the two best spinners of recent times, Czisny and Ruh, weren't tiny little drinking straws in terms of shape. Yuka Sato was never a sylph either, and she had one of the best techniques around because of her stroking technique. The five "lovely strong women" cited by you and me are a joy to watch, and I'm eagerly awaiting Caroline's entry into their ranks as she sharpens up her technique.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I remember when Robin Wagner said that she worked out of plan with Sasha to improve her stroking as a foundation to improving her skating and they agreed on the plan. Say what you will about Sarah Hughes posture, her basic skating was very nice indeed, certainly it was better than Cohen's. Sasha's response to the idea of working on stroking was to go back to John Nicks.

It's boring work. Spins and jumps are a lot more fun. But if you look at the skaters who make it to the very top of the podium consistently, they all have strong basic skating. I believe to this day that if Sasha had had better basic skating, she'd have been a world champion. In her competitive days, Sasha never had it all - she always lacked strong edges and powerful stroking.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Agreed about Sasha's stroking. I didn't know that Robin Wagner had proposed to change that.

I used to read that the old Soviet coaches would have their students spend long periods stroking around the rink. When you see someone like Gordeyeva, you realize how such training paid off. A friend of mine who saw Gordeyeva and Grinkov live (I think in Skates of Gold) said that when they warmed up, they didn't skate together practicing moves; they stroked around the rink and practiced individually. She said they both were the fastest skaters out there—they really flew.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Tanith Belbin said that the first thing Natalia Linichuk said to her when Belbin & Agosto first went to her for coaching was that Tanith was too thin and needed to gain 10 pounds in order to improve her core strength and that this would help both her speed and flow, and enable her to hold her positions better in lifts and spins. IOW’s, in spite of what the Duchess of Windsor said, you can be TOO thin.
 

feraina

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Speaking of practicing styles, Carolina Kostner warms up very, very slowly. She does a lot of stroking, a lot of MITF, and then doing quite a few big and beautiful single jumps, then double jumps, and finally barely one triple of each type before she gets off the ice. When I first saw her do this at a practice session at Skate America, I thought she was having a bad day. But it turned out that this is just the way she always does things, and she skated very well in that competition.

Caroline Z is just the opposite. She would get on the ice and immediately start jumping triples without much stroking or MITF or single/double jumps. I think it would have benefited her when she was younger to have a coach that taught her methodical practicing strategy.
 

feraina

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Tanith Belbin said that the first thing Natalia Linichuk said to her when Belbin & Agosto first went to her for coaching was that Tanith was too thin and needed to gain 10 pounds in order to improve her core strength and that this would help both her speed and flow, and enable her to hold her positions better in lifts and spins.

I totally agree. I train at a very amateur level, but even I can feel my power/speed/position totally go when my core is a little out of shape. I feel like core strength is at least half the puzzle when it comes to skating with strength and power (the other half being technique).
 

jiggs

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Speaking of practicing styles, Carolina Kostner warms up very, very slowly. She does a lot of stroking, a lot of MITF, and then doing quite a few big and beautiful single jumps, then double jumps, and finally barely one triple of each type before she gets off the ice. When I first saw her do this at a practice session at Skate America, I thought she was having a bad day. But it turned out that this is just the way she always does things, and she skated very well in that competition.

Caroline Z is just the opposite. She would get on the ice and immediately start jumping triples without much stroking or MITF or single/double jumps. I think it would have benefited her when she was younger to have a coach that taught her methodical practicing strategy.

It's funny that you mention that because I was about to post the same thing. I have watched Carolina practice lots of times, both at competition practices as well as in Oberstdorf. She always takes a long time doing steps and edge exercises. Then she does big single jumps; and then only one or two triple of each jump (that is at competition practice). In Oberstdorf, I have watched her and other skaters from Huth's group do several practice sessions in which they only did edge exercises (approx 1,5 hours per session just steps and stroking exercises). It was so interesting to see. Huth is very innovative and the skaters seemed to have a lot of fun. He always came up with something new.

I watched Sotnikova and Tuktamisheva practice at YOG in Innsbruck the other month and it was like night and day: Tuktamisheva got on the ice and immediately started jumping, while Sotnikova spent at least 20 mins just warming up doings steps and stroking. And IMO there was a huge difference between those two skaters in terms of the quality of skating skills, Sotnikova won hands down.

I guess you really have to take your time and practice those edges on a daily basis. Caroline had so much to improve on that she probably did not have time to focus on her edging too much - she first had to fix her jumping technique. Now that her jumps have improved a lot, I hope she focuses on the rest!
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I guess you really have to take your time and practice those edges on a daily basis. Caroline had so much to improve on that she probably did not have time to focus on her edging too much - she first had to fix her jumping technique. Now that her jumps have improved a lot, I hope she focuses on the rest!

Just as you have to run before you walk, you have to learn to skate before you jump. Improving her strength and edge skills will give Caroline a better base from which to jump, and more strength to ride the outside edge into her luz. It's interesting to me that the skaters who show the most improvement in their skating skills are those who have been injured and are not allowed to jump for medical reasons. They come back with better everything. Maybe Caroline needs to just stop jumping period and focus on her stroking and edges.

I loved reading the posts about the training habits of the best skaters. I has started to write about how the best skaters always start practices with a long session of stroking and then edge exercises and then deleted it before I hit the reply button. Michelle Kwan did the stroking warm-ups too and then the edge work.
 
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