All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

[heyhey]

Shpilband/Zoueva have 2 #1 teams. V/M may have won, but D/W are also World Champions, and they are the #1 US team. In the world of politics, it's now a game amongst Federations. Which Fed has the greater power in the ISU? Which Fed is going to give advantages to Z/S? Right now, Z/S will politick for both, but see which team is really worth their time and money.

There are lots of people in the skating world who believe that V/M are the greatest team, that they have talents that few other teams can reach. People of other Feds don't want a team like that; a team that is so dominant that their skaters don't have a chance, especially if their strongest medal winning chances are in ice dance. So they will want to politick against V/M, keep scores of competitors close, prop up competitors who eventually have a better chance of being beaten themselves. If the tide turns strong enough, it will be in Z/S's interest to "not politick strong enough" for V/M. Z/S want gold.

Well my two cents is that there will be lobbying all around and well on one hand yes federations might politik against V/M but on the other hand, traditionalists like Zhulin may politik for them indirectly. For Z/S - long term - from a business perspective - they would want to have D/W win gold at Sochi to attract US based teams to them and from a marketing perspective - to be able to say that they gave 2 teams olympic gold medals. With the SDs being the Yankee Polka and the Finnstep - D/W have been dealt very good cards. So let's see what they come up with next year for the FD...As for V/M - hey I am just happy that they are competing.

[romanoff81]

Virtue and moir have already beaten D&W in both the finnstep and yankee polka cd so i dont see where the advantage comes from.

[slipslidin]

[QUOTE=Dragonlady;636394]Again, that's not necessarily true. There really haven't been ANY Canadian dance coaches who have enjoyed international success with their skaters in the past 15 years, except the Lanes. And the Lanes have only had success with Crone & Poirier so that's very recent.

Crone and Poirier are a case in point. They were very much annointed and their international success never matched their phenomenal (if not controversial) success in Canada.

[Dragonlady]

[QUOTE=slipslidin;636402]

Crone and Poirier are a case in point. They were very much annointed and their international success never matched their phenomenal (if not controversial) success in Canada.

HOW were they "annointed"? They finished in the top 10 at their first Jr. Worlds when they were only 16 and 15 years old, and the silver medal at Jr. Worlds the following year. They won two Jr. GP events in 2007/08. When they debuted on the senior circuit in 2008/09, they won the silver medal and just missed going to the Grand Prix final in their first senior season. During the Olympic season, they managed to secure a third spot for ice-dance at Worlds by finishing in the top 10 at Worlds in 2010. All of this while being coached by a team with "no international reputation".

In 2008, when C&P were finishing 2nd and 4th, in their GP events, W&P finished 6th and 7th in their events. Even at the GP Final in 2011, C&P won the bronze medal while W&P finished 5th out of the 6 teams there. It wasn't until Worlds 2011 at W&P finally beat C&P for the first and last time.

So I'm just not buying this fiction that C&P were somehow "annointed" or "gifted" with ANYTHING. All of this just comes across as jealousy and sour grapes.

Has Paul Poirier been a Skate Canada favourite? Yes, and that's because Paul is a hardworking and driven skater who doesn't like to lose. Obviously so is Andrew Poje, because he's done everything possible to succeed as well. Skate Canada is in the business of backing hard-working talented kids with the potential to win medals at the highest levels of the sport. Poirier got there first, but that drive has been evident since he was a kid. I remember the mother of one of the boys in our coaching group saying "Paul Poirier is here. Everyone else is skating for silver". I think Paul was 7 or 8 at the time. Even at that age, Paul lit up the ice.

When you tell me Paul is "annointed", I'll tell you whoever it is you're backing is obviously not as talented or as hardworking because if they were, they'd be up there with him.

[all that]

Well my two cents is that there will be lobbying all around and well on one hand yes federations might politik against V/M but on the other hand, traditionalists like Zhulin may politik for them indirectly.

Zhulin won't be politicking for V/M because he wants I/K to be within striking distance. If I/K gets their act together, they could very easily come close to D/W in short order. It's to Zhulin's benefit to have D/W winning. If D/W win, coaches like Zhulin will instantly start talking about all of D/W's faults, and about how I/K are so much better, have the "Russian Soul," and that it would be better for the future of ice dance to have teams like I/K win. It's harder to talk smack about V/M, and they know it. The best way to get Russian teams up is to pull V/M down.

[slipslidin]

Dragonlady,

Just to clear the air, I am an outside observer, not backing anybody. I'm sorry I got off topic by mentioning a team that is no longer in competition. As far as I know there is no "skating skills competition" for single male ice dancers. If there was one I would back Scott Moir, just sayin'.

I am interested in fairness, though, especially when hard working young people are involved. When Michael Slipchuck gives a TV interview before a competition, giving high praise to one team and not mentioning the other, when their marks had been so close at Canadians it seems unfair to me.

When Louis Stong makes a statement grieving the retirement of C/P comparing them favourably to Torvil and Dean, I can't really call it unfair,(unless to Torvil and Dean), but it was very silly, and seems to indicate bias.

[heyhey]

The best way to get Russian teams up is to pull V/M down.

Well this made me laugh at first cuz physically I can see one of the Russian team members going over the boards and literally jumping on Scott Moir and taking him out....LOL...you know that would be the ultimate team event at Sochi - roller derby style - the ratings would be golden....anyways back to business....I/K have the potential but they will need to bring it and be consistent next year (ie. as Weaver/Poje did this year). If that happens then 2014 will be up for grabs...

[colleen o'neill]

all that..and as for Canadian Ice Dance ...

Dragonlady..My quoting ability seems to be challenged , somehow , but you said..

"When you tell me Paul is "annointed", I'll tell you whoever it is you're backing is obviously not as talented or as hardworking because if they were, they'd be up there with him."

I find myself in sympathy with much of what slipslidin' says, but I can only speak for myself. ..I'm not "backing" anybody , particularly , there are teams from right across the country and at both Jr. and Sr. levels , in whom I see promise . But when so much hoopla is attendant on only one team , or in this case , not even one team, but one of the partners .. I find it annoying and think it can ultimately be detrimental to the general progress of ice dance in Canada ... unless hoped for changes ( both in Paul's coaching regimen and the attitude of the federation ) are forthcoming .

I see some signs of change in coaching regimen in the case of R/H , which gives me hope, but ( though I have my fingers crossed ) it remains to be seen whether this will carry over to this season for R/H ,or to the other teams at the Lane school. ( Oddly enough, these changes were the very ones I and many , many others had been crying out for , in my case , for 3 yrs. , but the need had always been dismissed by the loyal fans of the school and seemingly by the school itself ) It makes you want to tear your hair out ,thinking of what might have been , but it is , perhaps , a sign of hope .

An example of what makes me still worry about R/H's position is ..despite the fact that they were doing very well during the GP, they entered a small competition before Canadians that they didn't need to compete in,but G/P did ( for whatever reason ). This was helpful to G/P , but not to R/H. Never mind if they had always done it before.. in this case , it was not in their best interest, with Canadians fast approaching. If they didn't know it , their coach should have, and disuaded them. In the field they were in, they merely served as a foil for the much-buzzed-about emergence of G/P. Add this kind of thing to the outrageous boost G/P received at Canadians , and I think people can be forgiven for fearing that R/H will automatically be taking a back seat.

On a speculative side note ,I find the above comparison to H/D in the US interesting , since both have been teams for about the same duration.. but I think there are some differences to be pointed out. I can't agree that Gilles' abilities were roughly equivalent to Hubbell's. I think Piper was always clearly a good step behind. I'm sure both have improved since they competed at the same level, but from what I've seen this year, I don't think Piper has quite caught up. The reports that H/D enjoyed a certain similarity of stride and timing from the outset ,were borne out even by the very earliest videos of them, when they obviously still had a long way to go. G/P didn't demonstrate this..togetherness.. to any great degree this year . They were noticeably having to concentrate on it.

G/P have one of the pre-eminent choreographers of some years ago , H/D have one of the pre-eminent choreographers of today. Both choreographers are capable of really excellent work , but one thing I feel falls in H/D's favour , is that their programs were built to bring out what abilities they have, individually and together, both in skating skills and in character..therefore, it's the couple that stays in your mind , not so much the choreography. G/P's programs seem set more to obscure what they don't have , character is superimposed over the top , in both the SD and the FD. The SD is completely forgettable to me. What stays with me for the FD is, what a cute, entertaining program..and no real impression of the couple as a unique entity.

Do I think top ten would be doable for G/P ?..sure, maybe .. depending on all the usual variables ..but if you ask me " Based on what you've seen from the two couples this year ( which is all we have to judge by ), assuming both teams will be working equally hard, do you imagine G/P would be able to best H/D next year ? " ...I'd have to say no.

Hmmm.. that was a diversion !.... I'll have to come back about Skate Canada and some of our other teams..

[NorthernDancers]

Dragonlady,

Just to clear the air, I am an outside observer, not backing anybody. I'm sorry I got off topic by mentioning a team that is no longer in competition. As far as I know there is no "skating skills competition" for single male ice dancers. If there was one I would back Scott Moir, just sayin'.

I am interested in fairness, though, especially when hard working young people are involved. When Michael Slipchuck gives a TV interview before a competition, giving high praise to one team and not mentioning the other, when their marks had been so close at Canadians it seems unfair to me.

When Louis Stong makes a statement grieving the retirement of C/P comparing them favourably to Torvil and Dean, I can't really call it unfair,(unless to Torvil and Dean), but it was very silly, and seems to indicate bias.

Exactly. 100% agree with all of that. There are MANY hard-working, talented skaters in Canada. By the time a skater is at Junior or Senior, they want to be there. They want to see success, and are working for success. And many at Senior are also helping to pay their own bills, which requires a whole different level of commitment. Skaters often get up really early in the morning, and give up many activities "normal" people enjoy. Hopefully each team has a good training plan to help them achieve the success they want in a structured and realistic way over a period of years, and the required time and opportunities with their coaches in line with their abilities.

In my opinion, Vanessa and Paul benefitted from 2 things in addition to their work ethic:

- longevity that allowed them to develop skills at an early age and maintain and develop them over years. They had a really long run together. Malcolm Gladwell talks about the need to spend 10,000 quality hours at something to be an expert. Look at the success of Virtue/Moir, Davis/White, Pechalat/Bourzat, Delobel/Schoenfelder, Dubreil/Lauzon.... All these teams benefited from their longevity.

- opportunities from/the love of Skate Canada and others. For some reason, they were identified as "the next ones" and given the opportunities and backing in order to achieve that. Yes, they worked hard. But they are not the only ones. I remember a little team called the Khongs. They were also Skate Canada annointed ones. They displayed some good talent and were identified as ones to watch. That translated into opportunities not afforded to all. By the time they were Novice, they were winning with exceptional marks, having programs from David Wilson, and traveling the world with Yuna. 99% of Novice skaters don't have these advantages. It really wasn't a balanced competition. I believe they even had some or all of their training paid for them by a generous donor. Malcolm Gladwell talks about this situation in his book "The Outliers" as well. Is it that this team was just that much better, or did they have more opportunities, more and better coaching time, which produced better results, which resulted in even better coaching time and even more opportunities, and so on? My theory is that it's a bit of both. And this is where I think of Ralph/Hill. They have the talent and the longevity, but they need to have the best in coaching and support and opportunities to get to the next level. The results, if they really improve (just look at Weaver/Poje), will take care of themselves. Yes, there is a halo effect over V/M and D/W, but they are also exceptionally good skaters, and deserve their placings. The lobbying for Gilles/Poirier from their first competition, followed by the ridiculous scoring at Nationals, has me worried for all of the aspiring Canadian teams. It was an insult to all of the rest of the competitors, and especially Weaver/Poje and Ralph/Hill. Skate Canada and the judges should be ashamed of themselves for that.

And just to add....what I think Skate Canada should do is spend less energy focusing on 1 or 2 identified teams. They should spread the opportunities and love around as many developing teams as possible. The committed and hard working and talented ones will become obvious. If there are not enough opportunities to go around, they should find more or create them. If funding is an issue, they should work seriously on getting more sponsors for opportunities, and developing and lobbying for a real "sponsor an athlete" program available to many developing teams at all levels. Within Canada, there should be a strict policy of judging and calling exactly what is done on the day, and not allowing bias or lobbying efforts to reign in competitions. The more teams in the funnel who are given real opportunities and good monitoring, the better the chance for real success for the federation. Some will start early and stick. Some like Dubreil/Lauzon will not find each other until later (I think they started skating together at Senior, and then skated for many years). But always the cream will rise to the top, and the athletes will respect the system, and it will be better for the sport in the long-run. We don't need any more "annointed ones". The whole concept is anti-sport.

[romanoff81]

If they come to within 3 points of Weaver and Poje in the FD next year at Nationals all hell will break loose on this board, i remember the look of death Kaitlyn gave to the judges when she heard their marks for their fd

[Mathman]

It's harder to talk smack about V/M, and they know it. The best way to get Russian teams up is to pull V/M down.

That's the part I would like to understand better. Does "talking smack" about teams cause international judges to place those teams lower? Why would anyone care what a coach says about rivals of his skaters?

[Mathman]

^ No, I don't think so. That's what I don't get about this whole "politics" thing. People running around saying, "psst, Davis and White's twizzles are behind the music, pass it on." Even if the person saying this is David Dore, why would the judge from Finland or Uzbekistan care what he said?

[all that]

That's the part I would like to understand better. Does "talking smack" about teams cause international judges to place those teams lower? Why would anyone care what a coach says about rivals of his skaters?

From http://rtg.blog123.fc2.com/?mode=m&no=1313 :

"S[cott] M[oir]: In ice dance, the practices are huge. The judges are there, they’re talking. Your judge is trying to sell you to the other countries’ judges―“Look at that lift, they have tons of speed”―and you have to be on."

What do you think he means by "your judge is trying to sell you to the other countries' judges?"

How do you think they sell? It's not just all positive remarks. It also includes negative remarks about competitors.

How do you think a country's judge knows what to look for in order to sell it to other judges? The judge will talk to the coaches. Federations invite judges to come to look at skaters while they are training and tell them how they think their programs will measure up against the competition. This is also the time judges will take notes on the programs, in order to be able to sell the programs later. Those notes will include what the coaches say about their team, and their competitors.

[colleen o'neill]

Isabella.. re history..R/H kept a version of that African dance for 2 years that I'm sure of , maybe even 3. The yellow costume program was Ragtime..(hmmm.) The next FD was an African rendition of Summertime ( and I felt their costumes flirted with a certain mythology that made me very uncomfortable ) this year's Latin SD featured a Latinization of Harlem Nocturne..( get it ?)

Their FD this year was a great program for them, and I was really pleased to see their overall improvement..but this African theme year in , year out is a bit weird , or juvenile, somehow ..and I think they should drop it as a regular part of their presentation. It's ultimately limiting.

[Dragonlady]

Isabella.. re history..R/H kept a version of that African dance for 2 years that I'm sure of , maybe even 3. The yellow costume program was Ragtime..(hmmm.) The next FD was an African rendition of Summertime ( and I felt their costumes flirted with a certain mythology that made me very uncomfortable ) this year's Latin SD featured a Latinization of Harlem Nocturne..( get it ?)

This is not correct. R&H used African themed programs for both seasons that the "folk dance" was the OD but the dances were not the same, nor was the music. The dance they used in the Olympic season was the Gum Boot Dance. They did keep any programs for two or three years.