All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

[colleen o'neill]

As I've said, I 'm absolutely incensed at the ISU's paring down of the GP. It's hard on skaters from many countries, notably the US, Russia, and Canada, who all are deep in talent right now. And each of the federations has to find it's own way of dealing with it... I don't like what I'm seeing of SC's method , because it's not maximizing the oportunities for all that talent.

I have to take exception to Dragonlady's post , on behalf of myself and others. As far as I can see, looking back on this thread, not one poster on these boards has vilified G/P. Many felt they were overmarked at Canadians ,in both dances, and somewhat more than "somewhat ". ..But we know they don't mark themselves.

People do want to "wait and see" how they do internationally , that's the point. Some ( like me ) object to the fact that apparently , SC is not waiting to see, but making sure to guarantee them 2 slots , arguably, at the expense of other couples....But we know they don't set their own assignments.

I disagree that three years ago P/I enjoyed " huge " buzz.. Overwhelmingly , the buzz was about C/P and their Chris Dean choreography. There certainly had been some buzz or anticipation about P/I, since they had come out of nowhere to take silver at Jr.worlds , but it wasn't really anything out of the ordinary.

And I don't agree that they were " pushed " ahead of R/H... At that time , R/H had not made the great improvement that we saw in this last year, and they were saddled with a juvenile and really badly costumed SD, while P/I had two mature, sophisticated programs... Both couples had 2 GP assignments , and P/I managed to take 3rd at Canadians with R/H 4th ... I didn't think those results were questionable... I was also OK with the 4th , 5th, 6th placements at Nats.this year, which had R/H ahead of P/I , followed by O/W . ( Interesting to note that in the FD, that order was reversed..O/W ,P/I , R/H )..Those 3 couples could be neck and neck for a while , and I didn't see anything at Nats. to make me consider G/P as much removed from the pack. Now, with C/S coming into the mix as well, it's way too soon to be giving G/P a clear preference.

[blue eyed birds]

Actually, revisiting the results, P/I finished fourth in the FD at this year's Nationals (then O/W fifth and R/H sixth).

[csparkles]

I'll admit; I didn't jump on the Gilles/Poirier bandwagon right away, because I did favor Vanessa. I always thought she was the better of the two, and when Carol Lane was out giving interviews, saying Vanessa was nowhere near the skater Paul was, well, it left a sour taste in mouth (not exactly sour grapes).

There is a lot of potential in this team. I like Piper because she seems unafraid. She doesn't have the regal quality of Tessa, the fragile vulnerability of Meryl, the warmth of Kaitlyn, the steadiness of Vanessa, or the fabulousness of Emily and Madison (Chock). Piper is an unknown quality that has to be molded--and that, I think puts her at an advantage. She and Paul can be amazing.

But they're not to the level of the top 2 Canadian teams yet, and to be marked so close to them, as Doris once put, is not just a disservice to the top two teams, but ultimately, a disservice to Piper and Paul.

To my certain knowledge, Carol Lane has never given any interviews saying that Vanessa was a lesser skater than Paul, nor has she ever thought this to be the case. Couples part for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is that, as in other relationships, they grow up to be very different people, and that is just part of life.

[ImaginaryPogue]

With the ISU reducing the number of entrants in the GP series to 10 for singles and 8 for teams, the number of available spots in the GP events is very restricted. Take out the three host picks and that leaves a total of 30 entries over 6 events. I notice that Chock and Bates of the US are getting one invite and they had better results and scores last season than Paul & Islam.

The US has arguably more talented teams than Canada and yet, other than host country picks, only 4 US teams have any GP assignments at all, and two of those four teams have won medals at Worlds.

Three years ago, Paul & Islam were the team with the huge buzz and big push from the federation. I was annoyed at the time that they were pushed ahead of Ralph & Hill, but it is easy to see the talent with P&I and, had they produced good results, it would have all worked out. Did you complain then that P&I were pushed ahead of Ralph & Hill?

It just seems to me that some posters here are determined to vilify Gilles & Poirier and are not willing to wait and see what happens when this team competes internationally. I do think they were overscored at Canadians, but not by as much as some of you seem to think they were. And while their FD score may have been somewhat inflated, I don’t think a score in the low 90’s is out of the question for them (see Hubbell & O’Donoghue), and I certainly think that they have a good shot at contending for the podium at their GP events.

The conclusion that G&P are all hype and no substance just comes across as jealousy and sour grapes.

It seems to me that you're deliberately misreading the questions people are asking. I've debated with you for years, here and elsewhere (under another name elsewhere) and am a little startled at how you dismiss us.

a) Firstly, you're the one who vilified other teams when you say something like this

When you tell me Paul is "annointed", I'll tell you whoever it is you're backing is obviously not as talented or as hardworking because if they were, they'd be up there with him.

Nothing said in this thread is as dismissive to Piper/Paul as what you said here, about any other Canadian skater, imo (Earlier this thread). It's a comment like this where you sound less like a fan and more like a shill (especially when you add the above comment to the mix. You certainly have more fondness for the Lane school than I do).

b) Let’s talk briefly about politicks, for a moment. Alissa Czisny asked her federation for one event at the end of the season (due to her surgery and projected recovery time). She got one (NHK)

• Is the federation intervening on behalf of it's skater, asking another federation to select her considered political? After all, Czisny skating at NHK has no real benefit to the Japanese federation
• Unless they get something in return, of course.
• I will point out that Haruka Imai is skating at Skate America and she has two slots despite only being guaranteed one.
• Is it really so conspiracy theory minded of me to speculate that a direct trade might have been involved? Or is it really a coincidence that Czisny got what she asked?

c) So, if we can agree to the IDEA that federations jockey on behalf of their skater, is it really out of the realm of possibility that they did so here? But did so at the detriment of one team?

d) Each host nation has three host picks per discipline, so twelve in total. The selections can be categorized as follows.

• Skater is guaranteed two (top twelve at worlds, comeback skater). These skaters are medal possibilities at a GP event, so always good for the hometown crowd
• Guaranteed one, got two (top 24 WR/SB list, JW/JGPF medalists)
• Guaranteed one, got one (top 24 WR/SB list, JW/JGPF medalists)
• Not guaranteed any, got one
• Unknown (TBAs as yet to be assigned)

So, looking at how each federation's host picks fit the bill.

SKATE AMERICA
Skater is guaranteed two: Jeremy Abbott, Ashley Wagner, Denney/Coughlin, Davis/White
Guaranteed one, got two: NONE
Guaranteed one, got one: NONE
Not guaranteed any, got one: Gao, Flatt, Razzano, Donlan/Speroff, Lynn/Logan
Unknown (TBAs as yet to be assigned): TBA (men, pairs, dance)

CUP OF CHINA
Skater is guaranteed two: Zhang, Pang/Tong, Sui/Han
Guaranteed one, got two: Peng/Zhang, Song
Guaranteed one, got one: NONE
Not guaranteed any, got one: Guan, Hueng/Zhang, Geng
Unknown (TBAs as yet to be assigned): TBA (men, ladies, dance) - giving up one slot in dance

CUP OF RUSSIA
Skater is guaranteed two: Leonova, Volosozhar/Trankov, Bazarova/Larionov, Ilynikh/Katsalpov,
Guaranteed one, got two: Gachinski, Sotnikova, Sinitsina/Zhiganshin
Guaranteed one, got one: NONE
Not guaranteed any, got one: Bush, Monko/Khaliavin
Unknown (TBAs as yet to be assigned): TBAs (Men, pairs, ladies)

TROPHEE ERIC BOMPARD
Skater is guaranteed two: Joubert, Amodio, Silete, Pechalat/Bourzat
Guaranteed one, got two: Carron/Jones
Guaranteed one, got one: NONE
Not guaranteed any, got one: Popova/Massot, Marocco
Unknown (TBAs as yet to be assigned): TBA (men, ladies, pairs, dance) – giving up one slot in pairs

NHK
Skater is guaranteed two: Takahashi, Hanyu, Takahashi/Tran, Asada, Suzuki
Guaranteed one, got two: Imai
Guaranteed one, got one: NONE
Not guaranteed any, got one: Murakami, Reed/Reed
Unknown (TBAs as yet to be assigned): None (giving up four slots, two pairs and two dance teams)

The thing to notice: not one host nation has given a host slot to a skater that was guaranteed one without them getting two. Now, lets see what Skate Canada did.

SKATE CANADA
Skater is guaranteed two: Chan, Duhamel/Radford, Virtue/Moir
Guaranteed one, got two: Lawrence/Sweigers, Gilles/Poirier
Guaranteed one, got one: LaCoste, Ralph/Hill
Not guaranteed any, got one: Firus, Osmond, TBA pairs
Unknown (TBAs as yet to be assigned): TBA (men, ladies)

Essentially, Skate Canada gave up two slots on the GP circuit. Two slots that I would've liked to see go to LaCoste and Paul/Islam.

[NorthernDancers]

As I've said, I 'm absolutely incensed at the ISU's paring down of the GP. It's hard on skaters from many countries, notably the US, Russia, and Canada, who all are deep in talent right now. And each of the federations has to find it's own way of dealing with it... I don't like what I'm seeing of SC's method , because it's not maximizing the oportunities for all that talent.

I have to take exception to Dragonlady's post , on behalf of myself and others. As far as I can see, looking back on this thread, not one poster on these boards has vilified G/P. Many felt they were overmarked at Canadians ,in both dances, and somewhat more than "somewhat ". ..But we know they don't mark themselves.

People do want to "wait and see" how they do internationally , that's the point. Some ( like me ) object to the fact that apparently , SC is not waiting to see, but making sure to guarantee them 2 slots , arguably, at the expense of other couples....But we know they don't set their own assignments.

I disagree that three years ago P/I enjoyed " huge " buzz.. Overwhelmingly , the buzz was about C/P and their Chris Dean choreography. There certainly had been some buzz or anticipation about P/I, since they had come out of nowhere to take silver at Jr.worlds , but it wasn't really anything out of the ordinary.

And I don't agree that they were " pushed " ahead of R/H... At that time , R/H had not made the great improvement that we saw in this last year, and they were saddled with a juvenile and really badly costumed SD, while P/I had two mature, sophisticated programs... Both couples had 2 GP assignments , and P/I managed to take 3rd at Canadians with R/H 4th ... I didn't think those results were questionable... I was also OK with the 4th , 5th, 6th placements at Nats.this year, which had R/H ahead of P/I , followed by O/W . ( Interesting to note that in the FD, that order was reversed..O/W ,P/I , R/H )..Those 3 couples could be neck and neck for a while , and I didn't see anything at Nats. to make me consider G/P as much removed from the pack. Now, with C/S coming into the mix as well, it's way too soon to be giving G/P a clear preference.

Agreed. This is not about the skaters themselves, but the questionable decisions relating to them. In fact, I think that G/P could be seriously harmed by the over-the-top pumping of marks. We saw this last year with H/G. They were never able to live up to the hype created at the BC Summerskate. By Nationals, they were soundly dumped. So now we have G/P, who have been handed marks they didn't deserve (not their doing, but the judges). They had very entertaining programs. They did some great tricks. They had speed. But I'm not convinced this is going to stand up against an international judging panel. Nor should it. G/P are missing the basics: unison, edge quality, lines, etc. All the things that make this ice dance instead of pairs skating or an ice show. I don't think they have the same quality as teams like Hubbell/Donohue. When stacked against any of the top 10 teams, they just aren't there yet. That doesn't mean they'll never get there. They just need some time to develop and gel as a team. P/I had a tough season due to injury. But their basic skills are significantly better than G/P. They are the opposite really of G/P. P/I are all refinement, pure ice dance, lines, edges, unisons, etc. But they are missing projection, speed, and big tricks. Hopefully P/I find those things in Detroit. I also hope G/P make light years of improvement in the off-season. Their task is the much harder one, I think.

[colleen o'neill]

blue eyed birds... happy to be corrected..I must be getting a little cross-eyed with all this.. I was looking at a simple list ( not the official site ) and cross-read the marks... Still , O/W managed to place ahead of R/H in the FD , and very close to P/I.

Before anyone assumes that I'm implying that O/W are better , I'm not. And I'm purposely avoiding crying "injury" , or any sort of " coulda , woulda , shoulda " as regards P/I at last year's Nationals.. ( As a fan, you do always hope for everyone to be at the top of their game and for a completely fair competition ...so Nats. was less than satisfying, what with the questionable marks for G/P , P/I's injury, and O/W getting caught on the wrong side of the Great Divide )... Still,R/H, P/I and O/W finished where they finished versus each other. Basta.

P/I's finish at Canadians put them on the team , their finish at 4CC was about where they would have been expected to finish had they been healthy and had altitude not played such a role for almost all the competitors. I would have thought they'd be deserving of a host pick.

Dragonlady seems to be saying ...Tough.Their international results weren't good enough .. but G/P have no international results as as couple, and yet deserve 2 slots ?..Sorry, I can't really buy that argument.

Last year the US fed gave H/D a shot at SA after their good showing in the summer (and a senior B )

Last year we were told that the reason G/P couldn't compete was because they had to wait for Piper's release.

I don't know what the story is on Crone and Sorensen..I'd like to know if he still has to wait for a release, or not... If he doesn't, they deserved a slot.

But as has been pointed out, either way, it would have been easy to hold off making one host pick until later on, and fill it after monitoring the candidates as the summer progresses.

If they'd tried to secure an invite for R/H , they could still have given that slot to them as a second, if no-one else was deserving ( not very likely)

There's simply no way to read this except as favouritism .

Ummm.. 'Pogue , didn't you leave out W/P? does that change anything ?

[ImaginaryPogue]

W/P didn't get any host picks (ie, they're not competing at Skate Canda). Nor did Moore-Towers/Moscovitch, Dube/Wolfe, Kevin Reynolds. I was specifically referring to how Skate Canada (and other nations) assigned host picks.

[colleen o'neill]

'Pogue.. gotcha ! I've been trying to keep a half an eye here, while composing posts on my wordpad ..too many interruptions ! So , I hadn't read your post properly...( Life is so inconvenient )

[slipslidin]

Some of the people who post here appear to have a huge emotional investment in their favorite skaters, and may not be entirely rational when those skaters are discussed. If we had video conferencing, we could see which ones are turning purple and tearing up, and tread lightly around them.

I agree with Dragonlady when she says there was buzz around P&I when they first appeared on the scene. Why wouldn't there be? They had obvious world class potential, and many of us could barely wait to see them develop. It seemed to me that Skate Canada gave them every possible opportunity, but for many reasons, things did not work out for them.

The previous season, and the one before that, there was a lot of buzz for R&H. PJ was so firmly in their corner I began calling her PR. They were given a fair chance.

It never looked to me like TPTB were trying to push P&I ahead of R&H.

Now, I'm afraid I must disagree with everyone. The top two placements at Nationals were patently correct. Those two couples are in another league, and V&M are better than W&P. Other than that, the "best" skaters were pre-selected and labeled and the third couple was wildly overmarked. That is enough for my little brain to declare it no contest and unreliable for the purpose of measuring the relative merits of the competitors.

And while I am flogging a dead horse, I will say that in the case of a theoretical split couple, where they are each entitled to one GP slot; if one new couple gets two assignments' while other gets none, enquiring minds ought to question this, instead of complaining that some couple that didn't earn a spot, didn't get one.

[NorthernDancers]

Some of the people who post here appear to have a huge emotional investment in their favorite skaters, and may not be entirely rational when those skaters are discussed. If we had video conferencing, we could see which ones are turning purple and tearing up, and tread lightly around them.

I agree with Dragonlady when she says there was buzz around P&I when they first appeared on the scene. Why wouldn't there be? They had obvious world class potential, and many of us could barely wait to see them develop. It seemed to me that Skate Canada gave them every possible opportunity, but for many reasons, things did not work out for them.

The previous season, and the one before that, there was a lot of buzz for R&H. PJ was so firmly in their corner I began calling her PR. They were given a fair chance.

It never looked to me like TPTB were trying to push P&I ahead of R&H.

Now, I'm afraid I must disagree with everyone. The top two placements at Nationals were patently correct. Those two couples are in another league, and V&M are better than W&P. Other than that, the "best" skaters were pre-selected and labeled and the third couple was wildly overmarked. That is enough for my little brain to declare it no contest and unreliable for the purpose of measuring the relative merits of the competitors.

And while I am flogging a dead horse, I will say that in the case of a theoretical split couple, where they are each entitled to one GP slot; if one new couple gets two assignments' while other gets none, enquiring minds ought to question this, instead of complaining that some couple that didn't earn a spot, didn't get one.

I agree completely with your take on Nationals results. 1st and 2nd are in their own league, with 1st struggling a bit but deserving 1st. 3rd marks were an insult to the 1st 2 teams. I would have kept 3rd, 4th and 5th, but have had them in a different order.

I'm not sure if C/S have to sit out a year or not? There might be more we don't know here yet.

As for the assignments, the only 2 Canadian teams making the GPF are V/M and W/P. With that in mind, SC would be better off maximizing opportunities. Thinking C/S can't perhaps be international this year because he represented a different country, it would make sense to give R/H, G/P, and P/I each 1 assignment. And then judge the Nationals according to what's on the ice and not through predetermined biases.

P/I did have a buzz when they hit senior because they were such a young team and new team, but had finished 2nd in the world at Junior. They've had a tough couple of seasons. R/H had more than a few years where there wasn't tremendous improvement, also with some tough times personally. I don't think one should write either of these teams off. R/H had a much better finish this year. P/I are going to Detroit to train, and already have some fabulous skills. Both teams are really young yet. With a strong work ethic and the right training, either one could rise to contention after Sochi, and certainly to 3rd place in Canada even this year. It's way too early to dump them as having had their chance. And that would be very un-sportslike. Although this is a subjectively judged sport, there are criteria and standards, and the judging should only be based on what is on the ice at the competition. If you bring it, you should win it.

[slipslidin]

It looks to me as though P&I need to work really hard to regain their form, PLUS catch up on the improvements they haven't been able to make in the past two seasons. I expect them to build speed and power at the DSC, and I do not want to see them sent to international competitions when they are not ready to compete. That strategy was a mystery to me last year, and I can't imagine what they gained from it. I had thought they might be third in Canada last year, and now they must really fight to save their career, even if the problems at Canadians don't persist.

Let's hope R&H continue to work hard and improve, and may the skating gods allow them two good programs and decent costumes.

And while we're about it, let's not forget O&W, another new team, but one that has contrived to make great improvements in the past two years. I fully expect that trend to continue. Some folks dismiss Wing and Lowe as unable to teach the basics, but I am not among them. The way O&W are handled this year will be a test of their coaching team's ability to handle a senior team.

I don't advocate dumping any team that competed at Nationals this year.

[skatingfan04]

I apologize if this has already been poseted and I just missed it, but W/P announced that their SD will be to the Sound of Music. We'll have to wait and see what cuts they use, but I think this could work well for them.

The program is apparently in honour of Andrew's grandma, who passed away a few days ago.

[emdee]

I was privileged to see Paul & Vanessa from a few feet away at the Ontario awards last year. They were so much better in person than on TV. They took my breath away.

That being said I can see that the dynamic between Piper & Paul is very vibrant and I can see why Carol Lane feels that is a good thing. I know Piper has a long way to go before she gets to Vanessa's quality and line but I am hopeful of a very bright future for these talented young people. I look forward to seeing them at Canadians and hopefully at worlds in 2013.

[Macassar88]

I heard that Dubreuil and Lauzon are coaching Crone and Sorenson. Who else have they coached in the past?

[Dragonlady]

D&L coach the Hasegawas. I was really impressed with this team when I saw them two years ago at Thornhill. She's very tall and they have beautiful lines. I thought they would do better internationally, but maybe I was expecting too much too soon.