Page 62 of 62 FirstFirst ... 12 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62
Results 916 to 922 of 922

Thread: All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

  1. #916
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    134
    Skating slower is easier. It's easier to do everything you think should be rewarded if you are not skating as fast as everyone else. The faster you go, the more difficult everything becomes. Superior speed is indicative of superior blade control, and better, cleaner stroking.
    So wrong. The ability to arrest momentum in unison, coming out of fast, synchronized twizzles, for example, shows skill and control that blazing speed cannot. The ability to switch tempos, to vary the pace, to hold an edge and extend a line - all show tremendous skating skills. Blazing through a program at one speed can mask lack of control, lack of refinement, superficial edge work, and plenty of other problems. Furthermore, this is commonly understood not just in figure skating, but in dance as well. With figure skating, there needs be an aggregate of the positives - good speed, deep powerful edges creating speed - long, deep, powerful blade drive, letting the ice help you, not simply driving and pushing across it. We all know momentum aids control! Well all know teams who keep all their limbs moving at all times to mask unison issues too.

    I don't think anybody is making the case that slow skaters are better than fast skaters, but if you're saying the absolute fastest skaters are the best skaters plain and simple, you are wrong. It wasn't true when early, rough Shen and Zhao powered through their programs kicking up snow like hockey players, it's not true of Gilles & Poirier, and I don't believe it's true of plenty of others either. I've seen plenty of fast skaters verging on wild, with noisy blades, who threaten to topple over if required to vary their rate of speed across the ice. Skaters whose ability to just power themselves down the ice using their conditioning and strength as athletes as much as or more than their skating skills sometimes unravel at high altitudes where that isn't possible, and their lack of control - and dependance on speed - is exposed.Look at John Curry's Olympic program. I don't think anyone can question that man's exquisite skating. He could vary tempo mid-spin. The nuance he as a skater brought to that program is unmatched. If he'd skated it relentlessly driving across the ice it would not be the rewatchable classic it is today.

    Quality speed is deep into the ice, uses the ice to get power and glide, so a single stroke can produce enough power to cruise across the ice. Plenty of skaters churn, legs and arms constantly busy, forcing the speed. Does it look exhausting even if the skaters don't appear exhausted? That might be a tip off.

    If speed is the demonstration of the best figure skating most of the NHL are potentially better figure skaters than exist in the various figure skating federations. We all know better than that.

    P.S. "Speed" is deceptive. If a skater (or skaters) is/are "relentless" out there, never less than aggressive, never holding anything still, the arms always going - "busy" let's call it - they can create the impression that theyr'e the fastest around. Meanwhile they may not be appreciably faster than the skater or skaters who can get deep into the ice and achieve a gorgeous, quiet, long glide.
    Last edited by nevergonnadance; 01-28-2013 at 01:10 PM.

  2. #917
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    347
    Quote Originally Posted by nevergonnadance View Post
    So wrong. The ability to arrest momentum in unison, coming out of fast, synchronized twizzles, for example, shows skill and control that blazing speed cannot. The ability to switch tempos, to vary the pace, to hold an edge and extend a line - all show tremendous skating skills. Blazing through a program at one speed can mask lack of control, lack of refinement, superficial edge work, and plenty of other problems. Furthermore, this is commonly understood not just in figure skating, but in dance as well. With figure skating, there needs be an aggregate of the positives - good speed, deep powerful edges creating speed - long, deep, powerful blade drive, letting the ice help you, not simply driving and pushing across it. We all know momentum aids control! Well all know teams who keep all their limbs moving at all times to mask unison issues too.

    I don't think anybody is making the case that slow skaters are better than fast skaters, but if you're saying the absolute fastest skaters are the best skaters plain and simple, you are wrong. It wasn't true when early, rough Shen and Zhao powered through their programs kicking up snow like hockey players, it's not true of Gilles & Poirier, and I don't believe it's true of plenty of others either. I've seen plenty of fast skaters verging on wild, with noisy blades, who threaten to topple over if required to vary their rate of speed across the ice. Skaters whose ability to just power themselves down the ice using their conditioning and strength as athletes as much as or more than their skating skills sometimes unravel at high altitudes where that isn't possible, and their lack of control - and dependance on speed - is exposed.Look at John Curry's Olympic program. I don't think anyone can question that man's exquisite skating. He could vary tempo mid-spin. The nuance he as a skater brought to that program is unmatched. If he'd skated it relentlessly driving across the ice it would not be the rewatchable classic it is today.

    Quality speed is deep into the ice, uses the ice to get power and glide, so a single stroke can produce enough power to cruise across the ice. Plenty of skaters churn, legs and arms constantly busy, forcing the speed. Does it look exhausting even if the skaters don't appear exhausted? That might be a tip off.

    If speed is the demonstration of the best figure skating most of the NHL are potentially better figure skaters than exist in the various figure skating federations. We all know better than that.

    P.S. "Speed" is deceptive. If a skater (or skaters) is/are "relentless" out there, never less than aggressive, never holding anything still, the arms always going - "busy" let's call it - they can create the impression that theyr'e the fastest around. Meanwhile they may not be appreciably faster than the skater or skaters who can get deep into the ice and achieve a gorgeous, quiet, long glide.

    Thank you!!! I could not have said this better. In thinking about pattern dances, it's easier to skate slower and ensure deep patterns, proper edges, lines, etc. Likewise it is easier to skate fast and short cut all those things. It's much more difficult to skate with deep patterns, proper edges, lines, etc AND speed. For all the reasons you so eloquently detailed above. To me, it's the quality that needs to come first, and then the speed will come. It's the slower road, but the one that provides the greatest reward.

    Or at least I think it should provide the greatest reward. I've been recently disappointed in the way dance has evolved over the last few years. On one hand, I like that there is more accountability, that one can look at a report card and understand what worked well and what needs improvement. I like that there is uniform criteria, especially on the technical side, and more robust standards. I used to really despise compulsory dances especially because I have always felt that it is impossible for skaters to know what exactly the judges were going to value the most from competition to competition. But now there is some rigor, and some technical specialists to at least compare to some known standards. (It's almost too much rigor and standards in the SD, where sometimes I think the dance is getting lost now.) However, I feel that the sport does not yet recognize appropriately the concept of quality and difficulty in the elements and skating skills. I've been away from skating for a bit, but I did manage to squeeze in Canadians this year. Let's look at the Senior dance scores for Canada's #1 and #2 team in the FD for 2 examples.... And a note to start, I believe the results are correct, and GP deserve to be in 2nd spot. It's the marks that bother me.

    - VM CuLi4: 5.50 points, 7 threes and 1 two
    - GP CuLi4: 5.17 points, 3 threes and 5 twos

    - VM CiSt3: 9.00 points, 4 threes and 4 twos
    - GP CiSt3: 8.50 points, 8 twos

    What the report card says is that for the CuLi, for which both teams received the same level, there was no difference in GOE between VM and GP with 3 of the judges. In the CiSt, 4 of the judges (half of them) felt that the GOE was the same between these teams. To me, this is a failing in the judging system. There is no way these 2 teams are evenly remotely close in how they execute their elements. VM difficult entrance, novel positions, difficult exit, flow and speed with the difficulty and with complex interpretation of the music, etc. is on a completely different level than GP. Yet the marks make it look like they are pretty close. The step sequences really separate these teams. VM are the masters of the blade work, line, unison with speed, tremendous complexity and musicality. GP have a very long way to go in this area. Yet, again, they scored quite close to VM under the system. In the tech score, there should be a way to reward and recognize higher degree of difficulty, musicality in the element, quality in the element. The levels determine what was done, but the GOE should do a better job of rewarding how an element was done. Yes, the PCS covers much of this, but not at an element level. PCS is supposed to look at the program as a whole and decide whether or not the transitions and linking made sense, how the music was interpreted, overall skating skills, etc. But right now, the GOE does not adequately differentiate when an element is difficult or done with high quality as compared to others.

    I'm grateful we have VM who are interested in pushing the boundaries of their abilities and the sport. The system does not require or reward this. And I think this is why we see too many teams slapping together elements that will get a level 4, without spending time on the quality and difficulty of the element. I think it's why so many programs look alike, and people think skating has lost its soul. I certainly don't want to go back to the days of over-wrought flailing of bodies and arms being mistaken for quality skating. I like standards and rigor. And I don't want to see difficulty for difficulty's sake. But I also don't want to see a bunch of tricks thrown together to get the most points, to entertaining music. To me, the elements should flow out of the dance and the story, as an expression of the story, not be the story. I want to see dance. The expression of all kinds of dance on the ice. For me, ice dance is about 2 people connecting to each other through music and movement to tell a story or emotion or idea. It's taking ballroom, ballet, modern dance, latin, folk, etc......and translating it to ice in a meaningful way. To me, the quality - edges, lines, unison, connection, musicality, control... - matters just as much as speed, and difficulty matters just as much as speed.

  3. #918
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    190
    Excellent posts nevergonnadance and northerndancers! Speed is great but control is so underated in sports. I think if you ask any serious sports fan - they will say that the great athletes control their bodies or can manipulate a ball...for instance Michael Jordan was explosive in his dunks but his ability to hang in the air for an extra one or two seconds and lean back in order to make a jump shot over a taller player - folks that it is control...same thing with Roger Federer - when his is on - can take a powerful shot from another player - absorb the energy and then slice it...crazy...even in hockey the players that can change direction on a dime - will often produce the most memorable goals...lastly there is nothing more beautiful than watching a soccer/football goal when someone has truly bent it a la Beckham...

    Northerdancer - I have to agree with you that the current scoring system is not differentiating enough in ice dance. We know there is a problem in PCS but as you pointed out the TES has work to be done. I also think that the judges need to up their game and seriously I would like anonymity in judging to go away. There is no reason for it. You should be able to explain your scores and not hide - period.

  4. #919
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,781
    Great posts you guys ! I've no time to join in right now , but I'm lurking when I can.

  5. #920
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    15,119
    Congratulations to the Canadian dancers who made their first appearance at 4CC's:.

    Orford & Williams finished sixth overall and achieved a personal best score in the free dance, and in their overall score.

    Gilles & Poirier finished fifth overall, third in the free dance, and achieved personal best scores for the short dance, free dance and overall
    score.

    And congraultiosn to Virtue & Moir, who earned season's bests in all three categories as well, and personal best scores in the short dance and overall score, and the silver medal overall.

    BTW, Canadian coach Aaron Lowe was in the Kiss and Cry for Madison Chock & Evan Bates during the free dance while their coach, Igor Shpilband, was at a competition in Europe with other students of his, Tobias & Stagniunas.

    Old timers will remember that Wing & Lowe were students of Shpilband before they retired to coach.

  6. #921
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,011
    Northerdancer - I have to agree with you that the current scoring system is not differentiating enough in ice dance. We know there is a problem in PCS but as you pointed out the TES has work to be done. I also think that the judges need to up their game and seriously I would like anonymity in judging to go away. There is no reason for it. You should be able to explain your scores and not hide - period.[/QUOTE]

    Some of you are assuming that speed in ice dancing means lack of control. Really? It's just the opposite. That's why judges reward speed in the context of the amount of difficulty presented. If you are doing Level 4 elements at speed you will get higher GOEs because it ups the difficulty factor.

  7. #922
    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    4,143
    New video interviews from Pj Kwong (Feb 22):

    - CBC Sports' Pj Kwong talks to Canadian ice dancers turned coaches Megan Wing and Aaron Lowe

    - CBC Sports' Pj Kwong speaks with Ted Barton about the rise of the BC Section's ice dance program.

    ETA, article that accompanies the videos:
    Canadians Wing, Lowe the wizards of ice dance
    By PJ Kwong
    Posted: Friday, February 22, 2013 | 08:16 PM
    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskati...ice-dance.html
    Last edited by golden411; 02-24-2013 at 12:50 AM.

Page 62 of 62 FirstFirst ... 12 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •