All Things Ice Dance: Canadian | Page 9 | Golden Skate

All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

slipslidin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Sorry, I am just catching up with the back story of R/H. Is the "banana skirt" a reference to her ethnic background this time?

Sorry, I have no idea of Kharis Ralph's ethnic background, and feel it should have nothing to do with R/H's choreography. No, I made a facetious reference to Josephine Baker, a very famous African-American, who became the toast of Paris, dancing in nothing but a skirt made of a string of bananas. Just to make myself perfectly clear; I wouldn't advocate such a costume for any ice dancer.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I did understand where you were coming from, Colleen. The African comment was more my explanation why I was perplexed over the back-and-forth between you and Dragonlady.

Colleen seems convinced that deserving ice dancers across Canada are being over-looked in favour of those from Scarborough, who she thinks are over-marked and getting preferential treatment from Skate Canada. I disagree that this is the case.
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Colleen seems convinced that deserving ice dancers across Canada are being over-looked in favour of those from Scarborough, who she thinks are over-marked and getting preferential treatment from Skate Canada. I disagree that this is the case.


Actually, I think the main concern was the 1 particular situation this year.... Gilles and Poirier. There were also a couple of occasions when many were in disagreement with Crone and Poirier finishing ahead of Weaver and Poje. Last year's Canadian title comes to mind. Because of the intense lobbying that seemed to go on this year with Gilles and Poirier, followed by ridiculous scoring at Nationals, in addition to some questionable decisions regarding Ralph and Hill this year, and some questionable program etc decisions in previous years, I think there is justification for raising the prospect that perhaps Ralph and Hill should go elsewhere.

Let's be really frank here: Paul and Islam were 2nd at Junior Worlds, and can very well achieve solid results internationally in the future. They train in Canada under Islam in Barrie. Islam has trained a number of ranked international teams in the past, and has a couple now. Virtue and Moir trained under MacIntosh in Waterloo for many years. I don't think many would argue that a key differentiating element - great quality edges, line, soft knees and unison - were built from the ground up in Waterloo. In fact, I believe Andrew Poje trained with MacIntosh for about 15 years in Waterloo, and he and Weaver were 3rd in the world at Junior and 3rd in Canada at Senior the year MacIntosh put them together. Dubreil and Lauzon have all the tools and experience to produce fine athletes, and I'm sure with time they will have some great success. Same with Wing and Lowe. Most of the teams going to the JGP were from BC this year. This coaching team is just getting started. They have a very good rink. The Scarborough rink has seen a lot of success domestically, and a little bit internationally. They obviously are good coaches.

But it should be said about all of them, as I've said many times before, all of these coaching teams have their own strengths and weaknesses. While we applaud them for their results, there is nothing wrong in pointing out deficiencies. Supporters of the Lane rink seem to be rather defensive about that. The sign of a great rink is the ability to take some constructive criticism once in awhile.
 

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
Sorry, I have no idea of Kharis Ralph's ethnic background, and feel it should have nothing to do with R/H's choreography. No, I made a facetious reference to Josephine Baker, a very famous African-American, who became the toast of Paris, dancing in nothing but a skirt made of a string of bananas. Just to make myself perfectly clear; I wouldn't advocate such a costume for any ice dancer.

Alexei Yagudin did something similar in an exhibition. The year after that, he went to a new coach and choreographer =P

As to the assertion that some people believe that those from the Scarbrough school are "overmarked", and other more-deserving teams are overlooked, please feel free to count me in as a "believer." Weaver and Poje should have gone ahead of Crone and Poirier to the Olympics. However, they did not, because of how the free dance was marked at nationals. Of course, that may have been the best thing to happen to Weaver and Poje, because they have worked their tails off since that happened. At the 2010 Skate Canada, either Michael Slipchuck or William Thompson was interviewed, and when asked how Skate Canada was filling the void left behind by Virtue and Moir, the answer was, "Vanessa and Paul are definitely carrying the banner for Canada..." It is true C/P had just won Skate Canada. However, a more fair response would have been, "C/P are currently our top team in the absence of V/M, but we have other strong teams, like W/P, P/I, K/H, H/G..."

Gilles/Poirier placing 3rd at Canadians with their free dance is another example of the Scarbrough teams being "propped" up. At nationals, they were still skating like two people, rather than a dance team. Also, their dance was relatively easy compared to the other free dances in the top 8. Not to mention that while Piper has improved since she skated in the US, she is nowhere near as strong as Paul (yet). I mean, what happens when they keep propping Gilles/Poirier up nationally, only to be shafted internationally, the way Crone/Poirier were once they reached worlds? Skate Canada isn't doing the Scarbrough team any favours by propping them up. In fact, it will only hurt them in the end.

With regards to Ralph and Hill perhaps doing better if they left the school--I agree. The Lane school was, like MacIntosh and Islam, known as a developmental school. You go to Carol and John Lane to learn good, solid basics. If you want to go further, you find a good "polish" coach. Same with MacIntosh. Weaver/Poje and Virtue/Moir did this after they had learned all they could from MacIntosh. Look where they are now!

And Mathman, I think Krylova, Domnina, Belbin, Virtue, and Pechalat can pull that costume off =P
 
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DianaSelene

Medalist
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
I don't really see Virtue in that type of costume. Don't think she'd pull that off. But everyone else on the list definitely could.
 

slipslidin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Stupid, stupid me!

Not at all, Isabella, I must get into the habit of using smilies more. I think it's perfectly all right for anybody to do an African-themed dance, but they should lay off afro wigs, dark face paint and banana skirts.

Sorry, Mathman and Blue Dog. Diana, I'm not so sure about Tessa, she's got the moves, she's got the motion.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I thought that the use of African dances for Ralph & Hill was in an effort to set them apart from other teams' folk dances. They were the only team to do something unique like this, unless you count the Russians during the Olympics and their dreadful "aboriginal" dance.

Nope, while such ODs weren't that common, there were several done. Navarro & Bommentre did one too, as did Pushkash & Kiselev in 2008 season. In 2010, Chock & Zuerlein did a not very successful Afro/Cuban number, as did Navarro/Bommentre again.
 
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colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
:biggrin: Isabella , thanks for your reply..mutual understanding is a good thing.;)

Dragonlady... I'm a bit dismayed that you should think my comments smack of jealousy. Obviously , though you have stated your biases , I have not made it clear enough where I'm coming from. I don't have even a remote affiliation with any skater or school. I know none of them personally, and make no personal judgements.

In regard to my comment about the silly chest hair..that's a costume critique ( not a Paul critique ). Paul is quite youthful looking for his 20 yrs. ( He may really appreciate his boyish looks in another couple of decades ;) ) There are very few skaters who can carry off that type of costume ( e.g. Tkachenko , maybe ?). I thought the effect was much like the mistake so often made with female skaters when they're bridging the gap between Jr. and Sr. In an attempt to make them more "mature" , they're often put in overly revealing costumes and too much make-up, unwisely confusing maturity with sex-appeal. Unless the girl already has a mature appearance, it doesn't work. Just too much of a hard sell... So, for me, his costume just added an extra note of superficiality to the program , and didn't suit him.

I do have some criticisms to level at the L/R school, and I've made them , often. I have never said they have nothing to recommend them ,or that they don't produce some very fine results in some areas ( strength , edges, power , etc. ) . I do point out that along with the fine results, they also produce some very glaring errors ( notably in posture and fluidity) that beyond a certain point, will hold their skaters back. (And I've argued that these errors should be addressed earlier in a skater's career rather than later, for best results. ) For the three years following C/P coming up to SR.s, there appeared to be little or no attempt at improving this part of their regimen, until we saw R/H this year.. I applaud the work that was done..:clap: ..I'm waiting to see if that's a change for the whole school and not just for R/H, for this year. if they address the weaknesses in their regimen , there's no reason they couldn't become a good international school.

While L/R skaters may appear well turned out at the Jr. level,comparatively speaking, the school has made some very ,very bad costume decisions at the Sr. level , up to and including the evolution of R/H's SD costumes this year ( especially Kharis' dress ). The tango costumes were excellent for her, just OK for him ( high-waisted pants .. not flattering to his improved, but still noticeable swayed lower back and they're not really a tango look )

I've never suggested R/H should go to either W/L or D/L ( though others might have ). I said if they get to the point where they feel they aren't getting the proper attention ( for whatever reason ), they should jump ship quickly , for their own good.

Unaffiliated as I am , I have no reason to be jealous . Of what ? Of whom ? I'm not in competition with any of the skaters or coaches , don't have a horse in this race. Sure , I'd love to see Canada have a top-notch international school , but it will have to have all the goods. I don't think L/R have them all, at the mo , but I don't rule out that they could acquire them... In the meantime, W/L have a much newer school , are achieving good results with their students, and we'll have to keep an eye on where they're going in the next few years. D/L are even newer on the coaching scene , but there's signs of promise there too, so I wouldn't yet bet money on which , if any of these schools is the best candidate to become Canada's foremost school..but I don't want the question to be decided by PR , annointing, or unfair marks at competitions . Merit only , please.
 
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colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
:laugh::laugh:Oh golly , I've been missing out on the banana skirt , while trying to type.

I can only add that I'm so glad Grushina is no longer competing and not likely to be reading this thread.:rolleye:
 

slipslidin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Wasn't she a hottie for the ages? The younger people here might not know, but that picture would be taken in the 'twenties, before we were born.

And one last thing, if we see half a dozen Josephine Bakers on the ice next year, I was not in favour of it.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
For those who have never seen the Josephine Baker Banana Skirt:

http://www.k2centrope.com/buehne/09.../jose/holeSkaliertesBild?hoehe=270&breite=405

It makes the Domshabs' Aborigine OD outfits look quiet & refined in design :laugh:

>giggle< In Josephine Baker's defense, she was one of the most beautiful women of her era, and she was onstage without telephoto lenses providing close-ups to viewers. She was also performing at a time when shock value really meant something--women had just left off wearing skirts down to the ground.

(OT--Baker was also active in the French Resistance during the War. I love that aspect of her biography. I researched her for something we were writing at work, but we ultimately decided that we couldn't put her in a schoolbook, because of things like the banana skirt. Sigh...in her way she was a great role model.)
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
slipslidin'..No , no , not your fault , if anyone tries it ... It will all be on doris' head...;)

And kids, there was no spandex or illusion fabric in them days. ( Talk about a gift )

MM.. :laugh:Why did I not know of Yagudin's version ? I must have blotted it from my mind...:laugh:
 
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slipslidin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
I let myself get blown completely off course here. My original intention was to reply to Blue Dog's post, which gave another example of Skate Canada's ham-fisted meddling. On so many occasions, while watching TV alone, I have disturbed my neighbours by shouting, 'MYGAWD, have they no shame?' , 'Have they no subtlety?',' Have they no couth?'.

Our most successful ice dancers have, traditionally, found their greatest success after leaving Canada to train, including the ones who were "feeling the love".

Please don't misinterpret this as an attack on any particular rink. My intention is to hold Skate Canada's feet to the fire.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I let myself get blown completely off course here. My original intention was to reply to Blue Dog's post, which gave another example of Skate Canada's ham-fisted meddling. On so many occasions, while watching TV alone, I have disturbed my neighbours by shouting, 'MYGAWD, have they no shame?' , 'Have they no subtlety?',' Have they no couth?'.

Our most successful ice dancers have, traditionally, found their greatest success after leaving Canada to train, including the ones who were "feeling the love".

Please don't misinterpret this as an attack on any particular rink. My intention is to hold Skate Canada's feet to the fire.

I really don't get your point. And I find your insinuations really offensive. Skate Canada is NOT eville incarnate and their record of success, especially in ice-dance in recent years, speaks for itself.

Until the Scarborough School started getting good results internationally, there really wasn't a top school in Canada and those teams who left Canada to train went to some of the top schools in the World and have achieved great success there.
 
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