All Things Ice Dance: Canadian | Page 46 | Golden Skate

All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Unfortunately, Colleen, for P/I it was necessary to look at Nebelhorn, Salt Lake, and compare to the other Canadians looking for 3rd at Salt Lake, SC and TEB. Despite the pay-for-use policy on SkateBuzz this year, their coverage is worse, not better. For the Senior event, I could not find P/I anywhere in the archive. I had to do a little digging to find and watch the other 3. And for a fee, I would have expected someone, maybe PJ and an expert or guests, to at least moderate the Junior and Senior events. Instead we have bad quality video, and archives that are messed up. The Meng's program only has 44 seconds. I/P are not to be found. I watched the Seniors in the archive, and the Juniors (except for Mengs) live with some re-watching from the archive. They have no business charging for SkateBuzz.

My study of season results would suggest that, although one cannot really compare across competitions, the general trend seems to be upwards for I/P. The report card is very positive, and higher than their scores in Salt Lake. G/P in TEB and SC received very similar marks across the competitions, and more than marginally lower than I/P at Challenge. Given how close I/P and G/P were in Salt Lake, I think it is reasonable to deduct it will be a fight for 3rd this year. (Or at least it should be a fight for 3rd this year.) And no surprise they are miles ahead of the rest at this point.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I agree, Colleen, that their sped, or lack thereof, is really holding P&I back and is the biggest single factor in why, I believe, that you and others are giving this team far more credit than they deserve. You said that for you speed is not a big issue given their other fine qualifies, but to me is speaks of weak basic skating. Strong basic skating builds speed effortlessly through good technique. And it's also easier to do things when you're skating slower. Speed makes everything more difficult.
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
I agree, Colleen, that their sped, or lack thereof, is really holding P&I back and is the biggest single factor in why, I believe, that you and others are giving this team far more credit than they deserve. You said that for you speed is not a big issue given their other fine qualifies, but to me is speaks of weak basic skating. Strong basic skating builds speed effortlessly through good technique. And it's also easier to do things when you're skating slower. Speed makes everything more difficult.

This is exactly the crux of the debate in ice dance today. It's even the point most often that separates those who think V/M are better vs D/W. I don't agree with this position at all. It is possible to have speed, but not pay attention to the details - how the legs line up, the depth of the edges, the posture, the musicality, the flow, the use of the whole body to dance, the interplay between both skaters on the team, the unison, etc.... These are the essence of ice dance. This is not speed skating. In fact we have seen in recent years that teams can use speed to hide the fact they are missing basic skating skills - speed without good technique. Tricks and speed do not equal quality ice dance in my opinion. In order to be successful at the top of the world ladder, it is necessary to have the whole package. When looking at the developing teams, I would much rather invest time and money in teams that have the details. Those are the difficult things to learn. Speed is so much easier to train and develop, especially when it comes out of those basics.

I don't think that it's really even about speed with P/I. I think it is about confidence. It shows in the body language and in the speed. This season, they seem to have found their way again, and I think they have a tremendous amount of potential. Working with many more teams in Detroit, being pushed every day with world level competitors, is helping build their confidence and their speed. That's what I saw at the beginning of the season. They deserve a tremendous amount of credit because of all the skating skills they do demonstrate as listed above...the essence of ice dance. If they do stay focused on their own development, and continue on the track they are following, I really do think world results will be there for them in time.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying ND. Speed is not everything and while many cite Davis & White speed as the reason why they should be ahead, I point out that V&M are not very much slower than D&W and they are doing stuff that is a lot more difficult and precise, and they skate closer together while doing it. I'm a huge fan of matching lines, unison, good posture and all of the other fine qualifies that P&I have, but they're not doing stuff that is more technically difficult than the other teams, and you could drive a truck through the space between them. It's not JUST that other teams have sloppier lines and skate faster, it's the levels of their elements, the distance between them and all of the details.

If you're going to rely on better technique, to keep you ahead of the faster teams, you need more difficult material and than they're using. If they're doing stuff that's harder and skating faster, it doesn't matter how good your posture and matching lines are.

A quick question: who are the junior teams who pull out of the Challenge?
 
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colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Gee.. I only have a little while before I have to dash off again ..so I'll try to develop a little speed in my hunting and pecking..;)

'Dancers.. I must have been mistaken..of course, I've only been lurking with half an eye.. somehow ,I thought you were there live ( though I guess you'd have to have been a bit of a superhero to be giving such a detailed post so soon after ) .. I'm more than annoyed with skatebuzz, especially considering that P/I didn't skate the FD , so that SD would have been something to go on ... there was other weirdness in the streaming and some performances that they have archived were hard to find last night ( not identified by skaters' names )..C/B-G for one e.g. .. other things with the technical set-up I don't like as well either...

and Dragonlady , we may only be in partial agreement.( But hey , that's something..:) ) I want to get beyond the lack of speed knock on P/I last year, which I feel had a lot to do with the injury..I know the previous year , they didn't appear to be particularly slow. Certainly, it was not something you heard being complained about. I recall at the end of that season, they were reported as saying they were working on building more speed , but I was taking it as a sign of wanting to be the best they could be, not trying to rectify a glaring problem... also, they were on hold, not knowing what would happen with V/M , so had to keep their programs , and work on what they could work on in the meantime ...

In other words , I felt last year they may have been slower than we would otherwise have expected , because of the injury and the lack of training time that resulted. I didn't see them live ,so I've no idea how noticeable a lack there was. The move they made to Detroit ought to help them to address this , and I, too, thought I noticed a real ,positive difference in Salt Lake. I agree that they needed a confidence boost ,and I hope SLC provided at least a down payment on that. I sure didn't notice a lot of space between them at SLC ..so this may be another " last year "argument ..anyway , we won't see them 'til Canadians now , so we'll just have to wait and see.

I have too much watching to catch up on from today .. but congrats to Cyr/ Brisebois-Gaudreau for taking 3rd in the FD today ( still haven't seen them. )

ETA: The Mengs are hidden in the same long segment that C/B-G :rolleye: Look for a one hour ( I think ) vid with a Zamboni on the screen ...or maybe an empty rink...
 
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NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying ND. Speed is not everything and while many cite Davis & White speed as the reason why they should be ahead, I point out that V&M are not very much slower than D&W and they are doing stuff that is a lot more difficult and precise, and they skate closer together while doing it. I'm a huge fan of matching lines, unison, good posture and all of the other fine qualifies that P&I have, but they're not doing stuff that is more technically difficult than the other teams, and you could drive a truck through the space between them. It's not JUST that other teams have sloppier lines and skate faster, it's the levels of their elements, the distance between them and all of the details.

If you're going to rely on better technique, to keep you ahead of the faster teams, you need more difficult material and than they're using. If they're doing stuff that's harder and skating faster, it doesn't matter how good your posture and matching lines are.

A quick question: who are the junior teams who pull out of the Challenge?


P/I are not that much slower than the others, at least not when they were healthy, so I'm with Colleen on this one. For me, the marks on the TES are one thing. It's the other stuff in between and the PCS that should adequately reward this team. If you get the levels and do the work on the TES, you'll get the points. Then if you have the rest of the details, speed should be only a small part of that PCS mark. I think P/I were just fine at their levels, and I would also suggest that it can be more difficult to add the detail and beauty than to just focus on fast and generic execution. We certainly saw that tonight in the Junior FD. More on that in a moment.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I am most certain that the injury has a lot to do with their P&I's of speed, and it set them back in their development too. While they work to get back to where they were before the injury, other teams continue to develop and move ahead. It took until the end of last season for Tessa and Scott to fully get their speed back to what it was before her surgery and they were world champions before she had that surgery.

If everybody's hitting their levels, and in the absence of major errors, the faster team will win.
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Ok. I have the scoop on the Junior Dance. I didn't bother going back to watch Senior because with P/I withdrawn, it didn't seem like much sense. So here's my impressions on Junior Dance....

1 Madeline Edwards / Zhao Kai Pang BC/YT 60.56 81.77 142.33
The deserving winners of the event. They were not perfect in the FD, and with just a little better skate Bent/MacKeen could have sneaked past them. I liked the SD much better. They had a few glitches and break in flow in the FD, and the acrobatic lift looked a little awkward, but the elements and the skating are really superb. Hopefully he will grow an inch or 2 and bulk up a little over the next few years, and they will have an easier time with some of the elements.

2 Mackenzie Bent / Garrett MacKeen EO 58.69 79.45 138.14
This was not the best outing for them. They were mesmerizing me until they lost their connection midway and then had some trouble getting back into the groove. They look beautiful, have great lines, and very smooth skating. I think this program is a great vehicle for them. It is very well conceived, and has a good amount of complexity to it. I’m sure they will be battling for gold and silver with Edwards/Pang at Nationals.

3 Mariève Cyr / Benjamin Brisebois Gaudreau QC 50.15 75.74 125.89
Now, I have been a fan of this team since last year when they caught my eye. I LOVE this program. It’s so elegant and shows off their incredible lines. She has got to be a ballerina off the ice. Everything was beautiful, from packaging to quality to execution of elements. Really pleased to see they were able to rise to a bronze medal. Very much deserved.

4 Victoria Hasegawa / Connor Hasegawa QC 52.45 71.76 124.21
The FD was much better than the SD. It is clear they have spent a lot of time reworking this dance. It flows much better, and the lifts are great, and they just executed it all so much better than the SD. They seemed to run out of steam by the end, and the quality diminished significantly, but I imagine it just needs some more time.

5 Melinda Meng / Andrew Meng QC 50.92 73.10 124.02
This is a great program. It was age appropriate, fun, well packaged, and just suited them very well. They are developing beautifully as a team, and I’m looking forward to seeing how they continue over the next few years. They are still very young.

6 Caelen Dalmer / Shane Firus BC/YT 53.26 67.52 120.78
These 2 provided the scariest moment of the competition. They need to stop skating together now. It’s dangerous. Although they are beautiful skaters, each of them, and together they have come a long way, and their program is wonderful, it is not safe for them to continue as a team in competition. They will not qualify for worlds. Just stop it now. It’s really heart-breaking to be sure, but someone needs to say “enough”. They both came down on a rotational lift. It looked like he either lost his balance a little or caught an edge. She is taller than he is, and add the force from the rotations and it isn’t terribly surprising lifts will sometimes go wrong. This is way riskier than for any of the other teams. It is not possible to break her fall or catch her. They were ok today, but another time they could both really be hurt.

7 Carolane Soucisse / Simon Tanguay QC 42.14 66.13 108.27
I really liked this program. LOVE her dress. Beautiful cut and colour. Their skating was also solid throughout from start to finish. It had speed, complexity, and was executed very well. This is a new team, and I think they just need some more time to develop. I’m not sure if she ages out this year or not. This team could develop well at Senior as well if they do need to move up. Just a note: I don’t think they changed the tempo of their music, which is not allowed and should normally warrant a music deduction I believe.

8 Katie Desveaux / Dmitre Razgulajevs CO 40.07 67.96 108.03
Now this was a really sweet program. She looked a lot better physically today, but it was a very careful execution. It was clean, and the program is very pleasant to watch, and they have a very smooth beautiful skating style. They are lacking complexity. It ‘s a very easy, open program. A lot of hand in hand skating, two foot skating, basic stroking, and simple stuff. They also do not change their music tempo, which I believe is illegal, and they did not receive a deduction for this. To me it is a very, very nice show program.

9 Christina Penkov / Simon Proulx-Sénécal QC 45.24 61.65 106.89
This team was significantly over-scored in my opinion. It is shocking to me that they are in 9th. They have improved tremendously since when I first saw them at Minto, but they have a long way to go. The program was wild and they barely eeked out some of their elements. It wasn’t nice to watch. This is a new team that needs some time to develop the basics. She especially needs to learn to correct her posture and skate through her knees. It will help her stability.

10 Lauren Collins / Danny Seymour CO 45.03 59.51 104.54
I liked this team’s program. It was fun to watch without being too cute. It suited their skating style, and they executed the elements beautifully. The program had some good content, and they are both beautiful skaters. I think they have a ton of potential, especially once he finishes growing.

11 Nicole Kuzmich / Jordan Hockley CO 47.00 55.10 102.10
The over-scoring from yesterday certainly helped out this team. They did not have the greatest skate today either, and it was clearly easier for the judges to deliver a much lower score. They were 16th in the FD. I have a hard time taking this team seriously. A few years ago, he was 2nd in Canada with a different partner. Now, even when gifted in the SD, he still lands in 11th spot. Their SD was awful from start to finish, and this, although much easier on the eyes, lacks real connection and quality movements. They must have been dinged significantly on levels as well. They should be better than this.

12 Samantha Glavine / Jeff Hough EO 40.56 59.50 100.06
I’m not sure why this team scored so high. To be honest, it was all a little wild to me. Perhaps they did enough to get the levels, which reflects the mark, but they have a very long way to go if they want to climb out of the 12 to 15 spots at Nationals. They have no elegance or gentleness, very little unison, and very poor lines. It was a physically rough program, and not entirely surprising one of them cut a finger on a skate blade. They should be happy to be in 12th spot, and heading to Nationals.

13 Marina Barova / Allan Stoll WO 39.71 59.29 99.00
This was also a very “ho hum” program. It looked like they were trying very hard to make it through all the elements. There was no finesse, and no joy in what they were doing. Perhaps there was just too much in the program, and it could use some simplification so it all flows better and doesn’t look like all work. It was hard to find the program between the elements. In taking both days together, it was just ok. No lasting impressions here. But I imagine this has a lot to do with the injuries they had/have.

14 Bianka Gadosy / Benjamin Smyth QC 33.09 65.19 98.28
Now I was shocked this program came in with 65 points. I’ve seen him with a long line of different partners, and he does not look like he is improving that terribly much. It’s quite a regression, actually. I think my favourite program from him was a number of years ago when he and his partner played Mr. and Mrs. Smith. This was just a bunch of elements with some stroking in between. They had a cool gender bender lift near the end, but that was the most memorable thing about it. These 2 are not a good match. He needs to find a small, petit French or Asian young lady. I’m sure there are lots of girls who could fit that description who are good skaters and dancers and would love a great partner! Unfortunately probably a lot harder for her to find a taller boy. We need more boys in the sport.

15 Haili Moyer / Aaron Chapplain CO 37.79 57.94 95.73
I wasn’t terribly impressed with this team. They have some speed once in a while, but the execution and quality of the elements just isn’t there. She also needs a better dress. I think it is supposed to be portraying latin style like the opening moves, but it doesn’t really suit her very well. They need some different music and a new seamstress, and lots more time to develop some quality, line, unison, etc.

16 Jade Marrow / Benjamin Mulder WO 40.72 49.01 89.73
Heart break hotel over here! Really and truly they do not belong in this position. In my opinion they are technically and artistically and just over all much better than a lot of teams above them. They are in this position for 2 reasons: they were horribly under-scored yesterday, and they did not have a great skate today. She fell on the twizzles, and it did seem to rattle them a little. I loved the change in program to Purple Rain from that waltzy schmaltzy program we saw at Minto. They have a great sense of the music, a great connection, incredible lines and extension, they look great together, and he is really a very good dancer. The 16th team has shown up at Nationals before, so one never knows.

17 Audrey Croteau-Villeneuve / Dominic Barthe QC 28.27 58.26 86.53
Redemption is sweet! Although they skated first, they put in a really solid performance and showed everyone they are better than their skate yesterday. Good for them! Now, about the music. It’s way too big and loud and bombastic. Choose something softer and more balletic next time, I think.

18 Courtney Baay / Nicholas Toth AB/NT/NU 38.42 47.65 86.07
Now, I have seen this team before, and I have to say they have improved. It’s really coming along. They look like more of a team. But I think they just ran out of gas.

19 Courtney Royer / Steven Paslawsky AB/NT/NU 33.09 48.84 81.93
I’m going to add the same comments here as I did for Stewart below. They need different music. Flamenco is not in their wheel house at this point in time.

20 Nevada Evelyn Smith / Addison Voldeng SK 31.67 43.29 74.96
This team did much better than I expected. They had a pretty decent program, and executed it quite well. They should be happy with their skate, I think.

21 Jayde Stewart / Dayton Stewart AB/NT/NU 31.36 38.84 70.20
Ok. It’s not fun being last, so I’m not going to critique this team too hard. But let’s be honest….do you really think you should be skating to Roxanne? Who gave you that music? Besides not having the skills to do the music justice, the cuts of music all the way through were simply dreadful. For next year, I suggest you find some extra help with music, something that fits your skating a little better. It will help your scores.

WD Noa Bruser / Timothy Lum BC/YT
WD Jessica Jiang / Eric Streichsbier BC/YT
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
If everybody's hitting their levels, and in the absence of major errors, the faster team will win.

And this is where I disagree. This is not pairs skating or speed skating. It has to be about the dance. If everybody's hitting their levels, and in the absence of major errors, I think the team that has the best skating skills, lines, extensions, unison, close skating, musicality and sense of dance, etc. in addition to reasonable speed should win. Speed is highly over-rated in ice dance and is too often a mask for poor quality. It matters, but it shouldn't to the extent it often does in my opinion.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Mitch Islam ‏@mitchislam
Big thank u to @SkateCanada & #Regina for hosting another great event! Congratulations 2 all & good luck 2 those still competing this wknd!
9:30 AM - 8 Dec 12​

I hope his tweeting this morning is a good sign that he is starting to feel better. :thumbsup:

ETA:
BTW, I thought this older tweet from him was pretty darn cute:
The little team I put together a few yrs ago in Stayner r now the PreNov champs of Canada! Congrats Hannah & Elliott @SkateCanada Challenge!
2:30 PM - 6 Dec 12​
 
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KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
And this is where I disagree. This is not pairs skating or speed skating. It has to be about the dance. If everybody's hitting their levels, and in the absence of major errors, I think the team that has the best skating skills, lines, extensions, unison, close skating, musicality and sense of dance, etc. in addition to reasonable speed should win. Speed is highly over-rated in ice dance and is too often a mask for poor quality. It matters, but it shouldn't to the extent it often does in my opinion.

Have to disagree. I don't know of many ice dancers who can mask poor skating skills with speed, unlike single skaters.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
And this is where I disagree. This is not pairs skating or speed skating. It has to be about the dance. If everybody's hitting their levels, and in the absence of major errors, I think the team that has the best skating skills, lines, extensions, unison, close skating, musicality and sense of dance, etc. in addition to reasonable speed should win. Speed is highly over-rated in ice dance and is too often a mask for poor quality. It matters, but it shouldn't to the extent it often does in my opinion.

Skating slower is easier. It's easier to do everything you think should be rewarded if you are not skating as fast as everyone else. The faster you go, the more difficult everything becomes. Superior speed is indicative of superior blade control, and better, cleaner stroking.
 

CAS

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Skating slower is easier. It's easier to do everything you think should be rewarded if you are not skating as fast as everyone else. The faster you go, the more difficult everything becomes. Superior speed is indicative of superior blade control, and better, cleaner stroking.

I'm just passing by this thread so I am probably missing some important context but regarding the bolded section surely you aren't ignoring what they do to gain speed. FP&M and C&S were the speed skaters of their generation, do you maintain that their superior speed was indicative of superior blade control and better, cleaner stroking?? I found there was a lot of running, pushing, pulling, hopping and toepicks involved.
 

nevergonnadance

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Skating slower is easier. It's easier to do everything you think should be rewarded if you are not skating as fast as everyone else. The faster you go, the more difficult everything becomes. Superior speed is indicative of superior blade control, and better, cleaner stroking.

So wrong. The ability to arrest momentum in unison, coming out of fast, synchronized twizzles, for example, shows skill and control that blazing speed cannot. The ability to switch tempos, to vary the pace, to hold an edge and extend a line - all show tremendous skating skills. Blazing through a program at one speed can mask lack of control, lack of refinement, superficial edge work, and plenty of other problems. Furthermore, this is commonly understood not just in figure skating, but in dance as well. With figure skating, there needs be an aggregate of the positives - good speed, deep powerful edges creating speed - long, deep, powerful blade drive, letting the ice help you, not simply driving and pushing across it. We all know momentum aids control! Well all know teams who keep all their limbs moving at all times to mask unison issues too.

I don't think anybody is making the case that slow skaters are better than fast skaters, but if you're saying the absolute fastest skaters are the best skaters plain and simple, you are wrong. It wasn't true when early, rough Shen and Zhao powered through their programs kicking up snow like hockey players, it's not true of Gilles & Poirier, and I don't believe it's true of plenty of others either. I've seen plenty of fast skaters verging on wild, with noisy blades, who threaten to topple over if required to vary their rate of speed across the ice. Skaters whose ability to just power themselves down the ice using their conditioning and strength as athletes as much as or more than their skating skills sometimes unravel at high altitudes where that isn't possible, and their lack of control - and dependance on speed - is exposed.Look at John Curry's Olympic program. I don't think anyone can question that man's exquisite skating. He could vary tempo mid-spin. The nuance he as a skater brought to that program is unmatched. If he'd skated it relentlessly driving across the ice it would not be the rewatchable classic it is today.

Quality speed is deep into the ice, uses the ice to get power and glide, so a single stroke can produce enough power to cruise across the ice. Plenty of skaters churn, legs and arms constantly busy, forcing the speed. Does it look exhausting even if the skaters don't appear exhausted? That might be a tip off.

If speed is the demonstration of the best figure skating most of the NHL are potentially better figure skaters than exist in the various figure skating federations. We all know better than that.

P.S. "Speed" is deceptive. If a skater (or skaters) is/are "relentless" out there, never less than aggressive, never holding anything still, the arms always going - "busy" let's call it - they can create the impression that theyr'e the fastest around. Meanwhile they may not be appreciably faster than the skater or skaters who can get deep into the ice and achieve a gorgeous, quiet, long glide.
 
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NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
So wrong. The ability to arrest momentum in unison, coming out of fast, synchronized twizzles, for example, shows skill and control that blazing speed cannot. The ability to switch tempos, to vary the pace, to hold an edge and extend a line - all show tremendous skating skills. Blazing through a program at one speed can mask lack of control, lack of refinement, superficial edge work, and plenty of other problems. Furthermore, this is commonly understood not just in figure skating, but in dance as well. With figure skating, there needs be an aggregate of the positives - good speed, deep powerful edges creating speed - long, deep, powerful blade drive, letting the ice help you, not simply driving and pushing across it. We all know momentum aids control! Well all know teams who keep all their limbs moving at all times to mask unison issues too.

I don't think anybody is making the case that slow skaters are better than fast skaters, but if you're saying the absolute fastest skaters are the best skaters plain and simple, you are wrong. It wasn't true when early, rough Shen and Zhao powered through their programs kicking up snow like hockey players, it's not true of Gilles & Poirier, and I don't believe it's true of plenty of others either. I've seen plenty of fast skaters verging on wild, with noisy blades, who threaten to topple over if required to vary their rate of speed across the ice. Skaters whose ability to just power themselves down the ice using their conditioning and strength as athletes as much as or more than their skating skills sometimes unravel at high altitudes where that isn't possible, and their lack of control - and dependance on speed - is exposed.Look at John Curry's Olympic program. I don't think anyone can question that man's exquisite skating. He could vary tempo mid-spin. The nuance he as a skater brought to that program is unmatched. If he'd skated it relentlessly driving across the ice it would not be the rewatchable classic it is today.

Quality speed is deep into the ice, uses the ice to get power and glide, so a single stroke can produce enough power to cruise across the ice. Plenty of skaters churn, legs and arms constantly busy, forcing the speed. Does it look exhausting even if the skaters don't appear exhausted? That might be a tip off.

If speed is the demonstration of the best figure skating most of the NHL are potentially better figure skaters than exist in the various figure skating federations. We all know better than that.

P.S. "Speed" is deceptive. If a skater (or skaters) is/are "relentless" out there, never less than aggressive, never holding anything still, the arms always going - "busy" let's call it - they can create the impression that theyr'e the fastest around. Meanwhile they may not be appreciably faster than the skater or skaters who can get deep into the ice and achieve a gorgeous, quiet, long glide.


Thank you!!! I could not have said this better. In thinking about pattern dances, it's easier to skate slower and ensure deep patterns, proper edges, lines, etc. Likewise it is easier to skate fast and short cut all those things. It's much more difficult to skate with deep patterns, proper edges, lines, etc AND speed. For all the reasons you so eloquently detailed above. To me, it's the quality that needs to come first, and then the speed will come. It's the slower road, but the one that provides the greatest reward.

Or at least I think it should provide the greatest reward. I've been recently disappointed in the way dance has evolved over the last few years. On one hand, I like that there is more accountability, that one can look at a report card and understand what worked well and what needs improvement. I like that there is uniform criteria, especially on the technical side, and more robust standards. I used to really despise compulsory dances especially because I have always felt that it is impossible for skaters to know what exactly the judges were going to value the most from competition to competition. But now there is some rigor, and some technical specialists to at least compare to some known standards. (It's almost too much rigor and standards in the SD, where sometimes I think the dance is getting lost now.) However, I feel that the sport does not yet recognize appropriately the concept of quality and difficulty in the elements and skating skills. I've been away from skating for a bit, but I did manage to squeeze in Canadians this year. Let's look at the Senior dance scores for Canada's #1 and #2 team in the FD for 2 examples.... And a note to start, I believe the results are correct, and GP deserve to be in 2nd spot. It's the marks that bother me.

- VM CuLi4: 5.50 points, 7 threes and 1 two
- GP CuLi4: 5.17 points, 3 threes and 5 twos

- VM CiSt3: 9.00 points, 4 threes and 4 twos
- GP CiSt3: 8.50 points, 8 twos

What the report card says is that for the CuLi, for which both teams received the same level, there was no difference in GOE between VM and GP with 3 of the judges. In the CiSt, 4 of the judges (half of them) felt that the GOE was the same between these teams. To me, this is a failing in the judging system. There is no way these 2 teams are evenly remotely close in how they execute their elements. VM difficult entrance, novel positions, difficult exit, flow and speed with the difficulty and with complex interpretation of the music, etc. is on a completely different level than GP. Yet the marks make it look like they are pretty close. The step sequences really separate these teams. VM are the masters of the blade work, line, unison with speed, tremendous complexity and musicality. GP have a very long way to go in this area. Yet, again, they scored quite close to VM under the system. In the tech score, there should be a way to reward and recognize higher degree of difficulty, musicality in the element, quality in the element. The levels determine what was done, but the GOE should do a better job of rewarding how an element was done. Yes, the PCS covers much of this, but not at an element level. PCS is supposed to look at the program as a whole and decide whether or not the transitions and linking made sense, how the music was interpreted, overall skating skills, etc. But right now, the GOE does not adequately differentiate when an element is difficult or done with high quality as compared to others.

I'm grateful we have VM who are interested in pushing the boundaries of their abilities and the sport. The system does not require or reward this. And I think this is why we see too many teams slapping together elements that will get a level 4, without spending time on the quality and difficulty of the element. I think it's why so many programs look alike, and people think skating has lost its soul. I certainly don't want to go back to the days of over-wrought flailing of bodies and arms being mistaken for quality skating. I like standards and rigor. And I don't want to see difficulty for difficulty's sake. But I also don't want to see a bunch of tricks thrown together to get the most points, to entertaining music. To me, the elements should flow out of the dance and the story, as an expression of the story, not be the story. I want to see dance. The expression of all kinds of dance on the ice. For me, ice dance is about 2 people connecting to each other through music and movement to tell a story or emotion or idea. It's taking ballroom, ballet, modern dance, latin, folk, etc......and translating it to ice in a meaningful way. To me, the quality - edges, lines, unison, connection, musicality, control... - matters just as much as speed, and difficulty matters just as much as speed.
 

heyhey

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Excellent posts nevergonnadance and northerndancers! Speed is great but control is so underated in sports. I think if you ask any serious sports fan - they will say that the great athletes control their bodies or can manipulate a ball...for instance Michael Jordan was explosive in his dunks but his ability to hang in the air for an extra one or two seconds and lean back in order to make a jump shot over a taller player - folks that it is control...same thing with Roger Federer - when his is on - can take a powerful shot from another player - absorb the energy and then slice it...crazy...even in hockey the players that can change direction on a dime - will often produce the most memorable goals...lastly there is nothing more beautiful than watching a soccer/football goal when someone has truly bent it a la Beckham...

Northerdancer - I have to agree with you that the current scoring system is not differentiating enough in ice dance. We know there is a problem in PCS but as you pointed out the TES has work to be done. I also think that the judges need to up their game and seriously I would like anonymity in judging to go away. There is no reason for it. You should be able to explain your scores and not hide - period.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Congratulations to the Canadian dancers who made their first appearance at 4CC's:.

Orford & Williams finished sixth overall and achieved a personal best score in the free dance, and in their overall score.

Gilles & Poirier finished fifth overall, third in the free dance, and achieved personal best scores for the short dance, free dance and overall
score.

And congraultiosn to Virtue & Moir, who earned season's bests in all three categories as well, and personal best scores in the short dance and overall score, and the silver medal overall.

BTW, Canadian coach Aaron Lowe was in the Kiss and Cry for Madison Chock & Evan Bates during the free dance while their coach, Igor Shpilband, was at a competition in Europe with other students of his, Tobias & Stagniunas.

Old timers will remember that Wing & Lowe were students of Shpilband before they retired to coach.
 
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