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Thread: All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

  1. #136
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by all that View Post
    From http://rtg.blog123.fc2.com/?mode=m&no=1313 :

    "S[cott] M[oir]: In ice dance, the practices are huge. The judges are there, they’re talking. Your judge is trying to sell you to the other countries’ judges―“Look at that lift, they have tons of speed”―and you have to be on."

    What do you think he means by "your judge is trying to sell you to the other countries' judges?"

    How do you think they sell? It's not just all positive remarks. It also includes negative remarks about competitors.
    Well...that's very interesting. Also very sad, IMHO. No wonder people like Mishin want to kick ice dance out of the Olympics.

    So this is how coaches sell their skaters. Do the judges have to buy? It kind of throws the idea of conscientious and objective judging out the window.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well...that's very interesting. Also very sad, IMHO. No wonder people like Mishin want to kick ice dance out of the Olympics.

    So this is how coaches sell their skaters. Do the judges have to buy? It kind of throws the idea of conscientious and objective judging out the window.
    Well I am not surprised that practices are important - I mean can we really be naive that there wouldn't be any discussions between judges at a practice. I mean anytime you have a competition where there is judging and you have the advantage of seeing the participant in practice - whether at a piano competition, gymnastics events or even pro-scouting for football, hockey, baseball etc - you are going to talk and make some sort of pre-judgement especially if you see an athlete etc that has exceptional skills...in terms of ice dance, that's what I miss about the CDs - you compared apples with apples and you can really appreciate the different skill sets....

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well...that's very interesting. Also very sad, IMHO. No wonder people like Mishin want to kick ice dance out of the Olympics.

    So this is how coaches sell their skaters. Do the judges have to buy? It kind of throws the idea of conscientious and objective judging out the window.
    From FSU, a translation of Vaitsekhovskaya's interview with Shekhovtsova `The First Lady.' Shekhovtsova is an international judge and a member of the ISU Ice Dance Technical committee


    What is the home judge for?

    EV: When you were following two top ice dance couples during the Worlds in Nice ,did you have an impression the results were not totally fair?
    AS: It's quite hard talking about the fairness without looking and analysing the protocols

    EV: Agree. Nevertheless, I had an impression the 2011 world champions Davis/White were held back by the judges from the very beginning of the ocmpetition.
    AS: I think Virtue/Moir were unquestionable leaders in the SD. As for the FD I preferred the American pair. They made the dance look easy, but there is a very hard work behind it. When starting analysing the complicated elements and how easily they were performed you realise what an awesome amount of work was done. Their `Fleidermouse' is a perfection of the ice dance.

    EV: Still they lost the free dance. Could it be because there was no American judge in Nice?
    AS: Could be. The home judge is not only needed to give a higher mark, but because he can promote the skaters among the other judges. Just like we used to do. I remember in one of the competitions I was blamed for national bias. I explained it was not a national bias, but a national understanding of the ice dance.
    If the judge can explain his colleagues his point of view, to convince his skaters' programmes are exactly what the ice dance should be like he can influence quite a lot.
    Coaches are integral in determining "what the ice dance should be like." Z/S have developed a style, and that style is currently winning.
    Last edited by all that; 04-12-2012 at 11:26 AM.

  4. #139
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    Notice AS said
    The home judge is not only needed to give a higher mark, but because he can promote the skaters among the other judges. Just like we used to do.
    Just like we used to do implies to me that this is no longer the case. This is what used to happen but we don't do that any more.

    Skaters and coaches often believe the same persistent myths of figure skating that the fans do. That's why they persist.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    Notice AS said

    Just like we used to do implies to me that this is no longer the case. This is what used to happen but we don't do that any more.

    Skaters and coaches often believe the same persistent myths of figure skating that the fans do. That's why they persist.
    It's difficult to know what "Just like we used to do" refers to. I believe the phrase refers to "just like we used to do under the 6.0 system." The rest of her answer doesn't make sense if it means it's something that no longer happens. Why does she think D/W could have been hurt by not having an American judge if this doesn't happen? She's a judge herself, not just a skater or coach.
    Last edited by all that; 04-12-2012 at 12:00 PM.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by all that View Post
    It's difficult to know what "Just like we used to do" refers to. I believe the phrase refers to "just like we used to do under the 6.0 system." The rest of her answer doesn't make sense if it means it's something that no longer happens.
    That is what I got out of it, too. (And Alla Shekhovtsoava -- the poster lady for crooked judging in ice dance -- ought to know!)

    I took her meaning to be, back in the good old days we were utterly corrupt. The CoP was supposed to speak to this issue -- nudge, nudge, wink, wink -- but the more things change the more they stay the same.

  7. #142
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Alla is no longer a judge; she is on the technical committee. So just like we used to do can be, just like we used to do, with When I Was a Judge to be understood.

    I think it would be naive to think the judges never discuss the skaters' strengths & weaknesses with each other. In fact, I have heard that 2 members of the tech panel were trying to convince a German judge that although Charlie is just slightly better than Scott, Tessa is a lot better than Meryl. So it still goes on, and how would it not?

    If the judge can explain to his colleagues his point of view, to convince his skaters' programmes are exactly what the ice dance should be like ,he can influence quite a lot.
    It is interesting that Alla thinks Die Fledermaus is exactly what ice dancing should be like, so Z&S are one the same page with her. (She did not comment one way or another as to whether Funny Face is what ice dancing should be like, too, only said she preferred Die Fledermaus.) Last year, Russians preferred V&M's Latin FD to D&W's Tango.

    It is also interesting that she regards COP as a stealth attack on Russian ice dance by Canadians. It's an interesting interview.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 04-12-2012 at 04:06 PM.

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    Die Fledermaus is too traditional in my book Doris it is more suited for Pairs Skating, there wasn`t really a coreographic theme in D&W`s FD that is what hurt them in the end, now V&M`s wasn`t exactly grounbreaking but there was a theme and it was well exploited, the lifts were perfectly in tuned and went through an evolution. So in the end the result was correct as far as Charlie being better than Scott no way he skates more like a freeskater than an ice dancer.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I think it would be naive to think the judges never discuss the skaters' strengths & weaknesses with each other. In fact, I have heard that 2 members of the tech panel were trying to convince a German judge that although Charlie is just slightly better than Scott, Tessa is a lot better than Meryl.
    They got caught doing this? Why weren't the three of them suspended?

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by isabella duncan View Post
    [B]These people were just doing PR!
    I do not think that PR should have any place in sports officiating. The judges should score what they see in the performance, not what they have been fed by glad-handing hustlers.

    Plus, as I understood the report, it was not the skaters' coaches that were doing the PR work, it was two members of the technical panel working on one of the judges. How is it the proper business of the technical panel to try to convince the judges to favor one team over another before the contest begins?

    (There you go again, Mathman, you naive Polyanna. )
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-12-2012 at 07:54 PM.

  11. #146
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Math, It's legal to talk about the competitors prior to the competition, and after the competition. Otherwise, you'd have to put the judges in a box all year round.

    Alla says it is Business As Usual. And it certainly matches my own meager experiences with a judge or two.

    If you were to ask me for my input on how to improve the judging system, so that it would appear more fair, it would be this:

    The tech panel cannot have any tech specialist or controller from any of the countries whose competitors ranked in the top 10 on the same season's GP in that discipline.

    OTOH, the judging panel must have one judge from each of the countries whose teams qualified for the GPF. This still leaves quite a few spots for other countries, and the other countries will be running the tech panel.

    The biggest judging problem to me is not the judge panel, and the fact that all the judges try to convince each other of the strengths of their own skaters and the weakness of others. It's the tech panel, which only requires two people to be in collusion to make a big difference in scoring. As for example, the two tech panel people who were out trying to politick a judge.

    And romanoff, in the first place Die Fledermaus is a waltz + a polka, not just a waltz. In the second place, I am only commenting on what Alla said, and she knows more about ice dancing than either of us, being a judge, a tech specialist, and a member of the ice dance technical committee and a coach.

    However, your position that somehow, DF is pairs skating is a little odd, because it contradicts your opinion that it is too traditional, and is a recognizable waltz & polka. Old tyme ice dance was in no way pairs, and neither are either FF or DF. Both are recognizable dances on ice. And very few pairs routines are recognizable as dances, although there have been a few from time to time.

    It may well not be your cup of tea. However, it garnered standing ovations in Russia, Canada, the US, and France, which shows that many people found it a very compelling piece of choreography & performance, a distinction that D&W's last year's Tango did not have.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 04-12-2012 at 08:04 PM.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    It's legal to talk about the competitors prior to the competition, and after the competition. Otherwise, you'd have to put the judges in a box all year round.
    In other sports, officials are members of the appropriate professional referees (umpires, etc.) association. As a matter of professional pride they do not put themselves in a position where it might seem like any team owner, manager, or player has undue influence on their play-calling. Organizations like major league baseball and the NBA are equally committed to giving the officials unions autonomy from league or front office pressure.

    The reason they do this is that they know that once suspicion of the officiating creeps into the mind of the public, that is the death knell for the sport.

    This just makes sense. What will it be next, judges placing bets on who is going to win the competition that they are judging?

  13. #148
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    why are you so shocked at this news, MM? it's not like this is a new outting of state secrets...

  14. #149
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    ^ What shocks me is that no one seems to see anything wrong with it.

    It's like when Bart Simpson got in trouble for teasing his sister, and his mother made him apologize. "Lisa, I don't know why I picked on you yesterday. I don't know why i picked on you today. I don't know why I am going to pick on you tomorrow."

  15. #150
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    Doris you must Know Alla has underlying motives here its much harder to Politik against the olympic champions than the silver medalists the olympics will be in her home country the russians will be desperate to get a medal in ice dance, even Bobrova`s coach Kustarova critizised Virtue and Moir earlier in the year the rest of the world knows who they have to beat for that olympic gold in 2014, when Virtue and Moir skated their FD last year and got a great reception even though Tessa was still injured you didn`t hear people say Davis and White did not deserve the title they knew they were not competing on an equal footing. Now that Tessa is back healthy it scares there rivals they will need outside influences to make them vulnerable.

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