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Thread: All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen o'neill View Post

    When trying to project what our teams' reasonable expectations are internationally.. who will be in contention with what other teams for what range of finish at World's and looking ahead to next year's competitive season .. where else should we look but to international scores to try to make some sense of it , if our own scores can't be trusted ?
    Okay, let’s look at this scenario: Lynn Kriengkrairut & Logan Giulietti-Schmitt had a free dance score of 75.58 at NHK. At US Nationals, they scored 92.18. If you were going to compare K&G-S with the teams Doris listed further up-thread to see how they measure up internationally, which score would you use – their NHK or US Nats score?

  2. #17
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    13 kjc 13..No offense, but I think your question is too simplistic.

    First of all, I assume people were watching the competition . I assume people are not looking to the numbers without reference to what they've seen at a particular competition , or without reference to the group of skaters we've been watching all season , through a number of events. They're expecting a national bump and make allowances for it. It's only then, when the scores still seem wildly out of proportion to the scores of the other skaters they've seen, that they turn to the outside numbers for clarification.

    In the case of K/GS at US nats. , I thought they skated well , had some great lifts that weren't always smooth, and maybe had some other minor problems. I 've thought they showed a lot of promise for a couple of years , but I was OK with H/D passing them by a bit ( of all the new teams we've seen this year, they are the ones who fit together best from the get-go ) .I was also OK with K/GS placing ahead of C/B ( both very fine skaters, with a major height differential to compensate for ).

    So. Allowing for, say, a high-ish national bump ..5 points...and when looking at the NHK scores , realizing NHK was not K/GS's best skate... maybe their natural fit would put them say, somewhere in the 80's ... lower or higher depending on how they skate, and allowing for different panels ... ( bump-deducted , an 87.18 FD at their Nationals being entirely reasonable ).. In other words , they don't yet belong on Mrs.P's list.. nor do H/D or C/B.. but in another year or two, any of them might ,on any given day , depending on how they develop.

    G/P do not belong on that list yet either , nor R/H or P/I ...but again , any of them might deserve those kind of scores in the future..in a couple of years O/W might be knocking on that door as well..depending on how all of them develop. My eyes tell me G/P belong firmly in this second tier NA pack, and along with the second tier Europeans , it's quite a log jam.

    You know , people keep saying "Paul was our National champion " , as if that should count for something extra. NO. He wasn't. Paul and Vanessa were. It's the team that counts, and this team is not anywhere near C/P's calibre..yet. It's obvious to the naked eye, without checking every element.

    Now, C/P were our champions in the absence of V/M ( I don't think there can be a question in anyone's mind that had they been there, V/M would have won. ) I know C/P worked very hard , but still, they won over W/P by a very slim margin, and it was a debatable decision. ( I say that because it was debated at length, here and elsewhere ) The distinction between the two couples was considerably clearer to the judges at World's. But I don't think it's that C/P were dropped so much as that W/P were recognised. Perhaps some combination of the two.

    Yes, C/P had been 7th the previous year , but that was in the absence of a number of teams who'd been either ahead of them, or in direct contention. Yes, they may have been undermarked at the Olympics, somewhat ( but not by 7 places, by 2 from the previous world's , and we saw the return of D/S and D/S ) Yes. They worked hard and improved before 2010 World's, but the 7 place differential from Olympics is a bit misleading, due to the post-Olympic shuffle.They moved up 5 places from 2009 (12) World's to 2010 (7) but still, had some help due to other teams retiring , being injured , etc.( I think there were 3 or 4, IIRC ) By 2011, some teams were making a comeback, and some undeniably good teams were present that C/P had never faced at World's before .. notably, W/P and S/S. ( I'm not bringing in the Russians, because that's a whole other can of worms.) Leaving aside the weirdness that often scrambles a world's following an Olympics , they moved from 12th to 10th in 2 years..I think the international judges had a pretty consistent idea of their abilities...and G/P are not there, yet.

    Why am I even bringing this up ? Because around C/P, there was always a steady drumbeat of P/R..they'd been so badly treated at one GP , that Carol Lane actually threw up..they were horribly robbed at Oly's, but look ! they improved 7 spots at world's ( never mind the people who withdrew ) ..Ooo, they're getting choreo from CD, look out world.. they are the new T/D.. They'll change the face of figure skating.. They've beaten W/P time and again... just forget that it was by very slim margins, and only at home.. No , no look at 2010 SA.. ( Forget W/P's mistake at SA , which apart from World's, was the only other time they met internationally , I think..)

    The hype was never-ending.. And now, you can see signs of the same sort of campaign growing around G/P , most undeservedly, IMO..and unless we decry it loudly at the outset, we'll be hearing before the start of next season.. how far ahead they finished of the other teams in the top 5 or 6 , and how phenomenally close to V/M and W/P, after only a few months together..and those dubious scores will be held up as proof of their excellence.. no matter what we see on the ice.

    It's disgraceful.
    Last edited by colleen o'neill; 02-05-2012 at 05:56 PM. Reason: sp.

  3. #18
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    Congratulations 13KJC13, no Canadian ice dancers have been harmed in your scenario. However I feel that you are a skilled debater, carefully leading us to your point, so I'll try to answer. I would throw out K/G-S NHK score and apply the National deduction to their national score.
    Last edited by slipslidin; 02-05-2012 at 04:17 PM.

  4. #19
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    Hellooo, slipslidin...where you been hidin' ?

  5. #20
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    Welcome to Golden Skate, slipslidin! may you post long and often
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 02-05-2012 at 06:54 PM.

  6. #21
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    colleen, you know I agree, but C/P also beat W/P at the 2010 GPF.

  7. #22
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    As to Lynn & Logan, they skated a lot better at US Nationals than at NHK. They screwed up three elements at NHK that they did correctly at US Nationals. Consequently, their TES was a lot better 39.29 at NHK,vs 48.07 at US Nationals, so almost 10 points of the difference in this case was improved technical performance. The tech panel at US Nationals was kind of middle of the road-not as tough as Euros, nor as loose as GPF.

    NHK
    Base 36.50 (level 2 on 2 steps, level 3 on one of the lifts)

    TES 39.29
    PCS 36.29
    Total 75.58

    US Nationals (level 3 on 2 steps, level 4 on all lifts)
    Base Value 40.0

    TES 48.07
    PCS 44.11
    Total 92.18

  8. #23
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    'Pogue .. That's OK ,I'm happy to stand corrected.. I was trying to operate from memory , and that one slid by me... But, what annoyed me was never that C/P won, here or there .. as the teams came up , they were close , but different... it was that W/P weren't recognised as being close by many in their own country , and relatively speaking , could barely get a mention. ( In spite of multiple close finishes ) How is that developing talent ?

  9. #24
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    Great thread! Very informative. It's made me feel like I'm not crazy for shaking my head at G/P's scores. I watched their FD at the Challenge, saw the score and thought it could be just an aberration. But when it came up at Canadian Nationals, I was so bothered.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen o'neill View Post
    'Pogue .. That's OK ,I'm happy to stand corrected.. I was trying to operate from memory , and that one slid by me... But, what annoyed me was never that C/P won, here or there .. as the teams came up , they were close , but different... it was that W/P weren't recognised as being close by many in their own country , and relatively speaking , could barely get a mention. ( In spite of multiple close finishes ) How is that developing talent ?
    You know, if you recall, I came at this differently then you did. It didn't bother me that the close victories didn't get a mention - recall that there were five straight victories for C/P (Can 2010, SA 2010, GPF 2010, Nats 2011, 4CC 2011). Even if they were close, it's hard not to be impressed that every time, C/P came out on top. It didn't bother me that the fact that they jumped several places from Olympics to Worlds was factually roughshod. They did beat three teams that had beat them at the Olympics, and they were better. It was Beverly Smith. As long as she's not thumbing her nose at non-Canadian skaters, I think she's showing class.

    I wasn't a C/P booster at this point, really. I loved "Eleanor Rigby" and loathed "Moulin Rouge" (the SDs had the obstacle of being SDs, but I think W/P had the stronger one, but the difference wasn't as dramatic), whereas the previous season had me prefering W/P's POTO to C/P's "Bohemian Rhapsody" (and W/P's flamenco to C/P's). Neither were V/M, which is where my obssession laid. I think each victory was correct.

    But then these Nationals happened, and the results - well, they make me feel all conspiracy theory minded. I suspect that both R/H and P/I will fall out of the top twenty four for world ranking, limiting their exposure on the grand prix even further. Now, this could've been mitigated by sending one team to both 4CC and Worlds, but SC elected to split them. Now, did they do this to make it easier to get G/P two slots on the GP circuit (this might be clearer based on who's sent to Nebelhorn and other Senior Bs)? I don't think so, but that I wonder if Skate Canada is actively hindering one of it's teams itself is rather disappointing.

    What should the teams do? Work like mad over the next couple years. Dig in. Get ready for the long haul.
    Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 02-05-2012 at 11:45 PM.

  11. #26
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    W&P are a team that wrote the book on how to succeed in Canadian ice dance when TPTB are not beating a pathway to your door.

    1. Perservere
    2. Get really good coaches, and this is important, not Canadian coaches (TPTB have entirely too much pull with coaches affiliated with their own federation. Remember, this is for skaters who are not appreciated by TPTB)
    3. Identify what you really do well, and go with it (in their case, lifts & acting) Get more training in what you do well to really excel at it and separate yourself from the crowd.
    4. Work (and then work more)
    5. Identify what you do really badly, seek good advice on how to fix it and then
    6. Work some more.

    As my Grandma used to say, "Success crowns persistent effort."

  12. #27
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    I was under the impression that USFS wasn't releasing Piper Gilles until 2013. How does that translate to G/P skating in the 2012-2013 GP which takes place entirely in 2012?

  13. #28
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    doris..I think you're right..wise woman , your Grandma.. P/I and R/H couldn't do better than to take a page from W/P's book. It's all they can do, anyway..so it should be with a coaching team that has a good record of guiding multiple talented teams, and international is better..

    'Pogue.. V/M was where my obsession lay, too, and the one program that I really liked much better between W/P and C/P last year was W/P's SD which I thought was a standout ( Really dislike Moulin Rouge , but recognized the difficulty therein. Liked some of the difficult choreography ... not the face in the Jar ...and shapes in ER , not the version of the music, and not the unflattering costumes. Thought Fallin ' simply didn't work) No, it was really the hype and one sidedness that got to me, coming in spite of some controversial decisions between them at home.

    When your champion is clear ,and you have more than one team closely competitive with each other at the next level, I think it's foolish ( at least ) to put all your eggs in one basket too soon.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    I was under the impression that USFS wasn't releasing Piper Gilles until 2013. How does that translate to G/P skating in the 2012-2013 GP which takes place entirely in 2012?
    My understanding was that she would be released March 2012. Lets find out

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    My understanding was that she would be released March 2012. Lets find out
    Sometimes the things that I see on this discussion board make me want to pull my hair out. But this is a great and insightful discussion. Thanks so much! (esp Colleen O'Neill, Dorispulaski & Imaginary Pogue)

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