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Thread: All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

  1. #76
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    I'm not worried about W/P either. I expect K/C to be right on top of making sure they have good choreo. I'm not at all worried about their ability to see what they need and setting about getting it. I wish them continued good health , and that the good times will continue to roll...Hmmmm..as I type this, that sounds like an exhibition number ... B.B. King and Let the Good Times Roll ... ?

    Oops! I sent myself off on a YouTube side trip there , and now there's more responses. Look , no one says that the politiking exists to the same obvious degree that it did in the bad old days , but to pretend that it plays no role is either naivete or denial ...(in my humble opinion ). To have an effect , it doesn't have to include backroom deals and payoffs.

    People are always pointing out in that judges are human and may see the same thing in slightly different ways and still be correct, or honest. that's true. It's also true that humans can be affected by hype , or international reputation. If you go to, say, a movie after having read a review by a critic whose opinion you respect , or after having been bombarded for months by ads featuring glowing opinions , you may well go in expecting it to be good from the outset, and not have quite the critical eye you would have had if you went in cold. If you've seen something featuring an actor or director whose work you loved. You may well expect them to be good next time out and pay a bit more attention than to an actor or director you're unfamiliar with.

    I have to go out and come back in ...

    ETA; I think O/W were shafted at Canadians,as well..OK , I didn't like G/P's SD it was full of details copied directly from the year's successful SDs.. notably C/L and P/B .I didn't like the costumes, and I always tend not to like the overdone O-faces . But should they have scored lower than O/W ? I don't know .. but I do know that they should never have scored that much higher.
    Even Tracy Wilson was compelled to theorize that they may have received such phenomenally high scores because they were obviously so much better than the teams around them ( don't forget they skated very early..and don't forget that part of Tracy's job is to put things as diplomatically as she can for Canadian skaters ).

    By comparison ( allowing for national boost ) O/W were somewhat under marked at this stage, I think. A slight under mark added to a very healthy over mark can lead to devastating results. Next , SC's and CTV's tinkering make a contribution. Due to the split competition, O/W missed the final flight and didn't have a chance to be seen in the company they deserved to be in. Instead of a 20 min resurfacing break there many hours separating them from their closest competitors.

    As it was , their FD outscored R/H and very nearly caught P/I. Can we be sure all the judges were totally unaffected by this ? Can we be sure the atmosphere, ice conditions, etc. remained the same , or that the good scores that they posted might not have had an effect on the teams that needed to stay ahead of them..if it had been a normal competition ? Not in my opinion..and it can't be amended. For the finishing touch, their FD was therefore not shown on TV, keeping them out of public awareness , and off the radar of anyone watching from abroad.

    As a result, was a fair chance at a higher level of funding also denied them ?
    Last edited by colleen o'neill; 04-08-2012 at 05:28 PM.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen o'neill View Post
    I'm not worried about W/P either. I expect K/C to be right on top of making sure they have good choreo. I'm not at all worried about their ability to see what they need and setting about getting it. I wish them continued good health , and that the good times will continue to roll...Hmmmm..as I type this, that sounds like an exhibition number ... B.B. King and Let the Good Times Roll ... ?

    Oops! I sent myself off on a YouTube side trip there , and now there's more responses. Look , no one says that the politiking exists to the same obvious degree that it did in the bad old days , but to pretend that it plays no role is either naivete or denial ...(in my humble opinion ). To have an effect , it doesn't have to include backroom deals and payoffs.

    People are always pointing out in that judges are human and may see the same thing in slightly different ways and still be correct, or honest. that's true. It's also true that humans can be affected by hype , or international reputation. If you go to, say, a movie after having read a review by a critic whose opinion you respect , or after having been bombarded for months by ads featuring glowing opinions , you may well go in expecting it to be good from the outset, and not have quite the critical eye you would have had if you went in cold. If you've seen something featuring an actor or director whose work you loved. You may well expect them to be good next time out and pay a bit more attention than to an actor or director you're unfamiliar with.

    I have to go out and come back in ...

    ETA; I think O/W were shafted at Canadians,as well..OK , I didn't like G/P's SD it was full of details copied directly from the year's successful SDs.. notably C/L and P/B .I didn't like the costumes, and I always tend not to like the overdone O-faces . But should they have scored lower than O/W ? I don't know .. but I do know that they should never have scored that much higher.
    Even Tracy Wilson was compelled to theorize that they may have received such phenomenally high scores because they were obviously so much better than the teams around them ( don't forget they skated very early..and don't forget that part of Tracy's job is to put things as diplomatically as she can for Canadian skaters ).

    By comparison ( allowing for national boost ) O/W were somewhat under marked at this stage, I think. A slight under mark added to a very healthy over mark can lead to devastating results. Next , SC's and CTV's tinkering make a contribution. Due to the split competition, O/W missed the final flight and didn't have a chance to be seen in the company they deserved to be in. Instead of a 20 min resurfacing break there many hours separating them from their closest competitors.

    As it was , their FD outscored R/H and very nearly caught P/I. Can we be sure all the judges were totally unaffected by this ? Can we be sure the atmosphere, ice conditions, etc. remained the same , or that the good scores that they posted might not have had an effect on the teams that needed to stay ahead of them..if it had been a normal competition ? Not in my opinion..and it can't be amended. For the finishing touch, their FD was therefore not shown on TV, keeping them out of public awareness , and off the radar of anyone watching from abroad.

    As a result, was a fair chance at a higher level of funding also denied them ?

    W/P will be fine. They are in a good place right now. I'm sure they will have fun with the YP. Andrew's dad is German, I believe, and Andrew if from Kitchener-Waterloo, which is the home of Oktoberfest.... Take the heritage and add some interesting music choices and choreography from K/C, and it could be really wonderful. Yes, it is true that the YP is more difficult for tall people, but it can also look really strong and fabulous with all those lines. They'll have to spend a lot of time in the gym working on the muscle memory for quick action.

    100% agree that the politicking doesn't happen the way it used to in the bad old days. Thankfully, there are levels and scores to keep things more honest. But I agree that that it is naive to think it doesn't happen at all. G/P were ridiculously over-scored at Nationals. There is just no way they deserved those marks. They have power, but that's about it right now as a team. They should have been 4th or 5th this year. Do they have potential? Absolutely. But they need to find some unison, edges, lines and real dancing instead of just a bunch of tricks skated at break-neck speed. I saw some of those first competitions, and there was clearly a "lobby" effort ongoing. It was obvious and a little nauseating, to be honest. These kids need a chance to develop. They both individually have some excellent experience and raw materials. Now they have to put it together in proper way. And we all have to give them a chance to do it. They are really young. So they have time.

    I agree that R/H need a new coaching team. I imagine that is difficult, given school and life situations, but my suggestion for them is Montreal with D/L. It's nice and close to home yet. And D/L will give them a different view of their technique and some different choreographic material. I'd be interested to see what they would do with R/H. I think there is a lot of potential there yet.

    For what it's worth, I think O/W are over-rated. They are an un-evenly matched team, which does not bode well for the future for them. He has improved his speed over the last couple of years, but that has been at the expense of quality. It's like they have to move at such a speed as to hide the fact of the missing lines and unison and edges. I stopped counting the number of times she did a twizzle as a highlight move in the FD. He's great at lifts, twizzles improved, but the basic dancing and skating skills just aren't there for him. She is really very lovely and so much better than he is. And it is just so obvious. Unless they even out between them, I don't see them finishing higher in the ranks internationally. I think they deserved 6th place in Canada, which is a very wonderful spot to be when one considers the talent in the top 5, and you are straddling Junior and Senior. I was kind of hoping that she might end up with a fabulous dancer like Keith Gagnon, but perhaps she is too tall for him. But that's the quality she needs. If R/H have another year of progress and good programs, G/P improve their skating skills so they don't get dumped internationally, and if I/P have a great, healthy off-season, I don't see how O/W will catch any of these teams right now. I'm hoping to see some more mature, more developed programs out of BC for all their teams. Speed is good, but let's see some beautiful dancing, more complex choreography, and skating skills and variety in music choices.

    I really, truly, am begging that Skate Canada re-think the whole split competition idea. It was horrible. It was awful for the fans. It was awful for the schedule. It was awful most of all for the athletes. And this should be all about the athletes. I have to think that some results would be different had the event be treated like 1 event, as opposed to 2 events. This is not just for dance, but for pairs as well. It is off-setting for the top flight as well to skate separately from the rest of the event. The atmosphere was different. It is wrong on so many levels. There are so few teams and skaters at Nationals, thanks to Challenge, that the least they could do is keep the integrity of the events. I'm sure it wouldn't be a huge trouble for Tracy and whomever to commentate a few more teams. Seriously. This is Nationals. Or if they really have no interest in the developing teams, they could just start broadcasting the last flight. Just make sure they also stream the whole thing or relegate it to TSN2. Maybe bring in PJ to help. She's been fantastic. I have not met a single person throughout the season or at Nationals who felt that the new schedule was a good idea. Not a single person.

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    Gilles and Poirier you know will come very prepared next year they think they already have the goods for world and olympic medals i heard Piper say that, weaver and Poje better be on the lookout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen o'neill View Post
    ETA; I think O/W were shafted at Canadians,as well..OK , I didn't like G/P's SD it was full of details copied directly from the year's successful SDs.. notably C/L and P/B .I didn't like the costumes, and I always tend not to like the overdone O-faces . But should they have scored lower than O/W ? I don't know .. but I do know that they should never have scored that much higher.
    I went back and watched O/W's programs before responding to this O/W wuz robbed stuff and I'm afraid I don't share this opinion at all. They looked very junior to me. They were very light in their transitions, and their edges are not deep. Mostly they stand upright and lack the deep knees to contend with any of the teams who finished above them. Nicole does not lock her knees and as a result, their lines suffer. Last, but not least, there is a great deal of distance between the two of them. I could not help but note that they scored 10 points lower at Jr. Worlds than they did at Canadians and that their two lowest PCS scores were for transitions and skating skills.

    Then I watched G&P and I saw speed, deep edges, strong matching lines. I noted that Piper has very strong lines and good positions. As for Tracey Wilson, she noted how close they skated together. They used all levels, while O/W are only using one level. Everything G&P did was more difficult and performed better than O/W.

    O/W are a true junior team with a ways to before they can compete with senior teams. I have no problem with their placement, and they will get full junior team funding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    I really, truly, am begging that Skate Canada re-think the whole split competition idea. It was horrible. It was awful for the fans. It was awful for the schedule. It was awful most of all for the athletes. And this should be all about the athletes. I have to think that some results would be different had the event be treated like 1 event, as opposed to 2 events. This is not just for dance, but for pairs as well. It is off-setting for the top flight as well to skate separately from the rest of the event. The atmosphere was different. It is wrong on so many levels. There are so few teams and skaters at Nationals, thanks to Challenge, that the least they could do is keep the integrity of the events. I'm sure it wouldn't be a huge trouble for Tracy and whomever to commentate a few more teams. Seriously. This is Nationals. Or if they really have no interest in the developing teams, they could just start broadcasting the last flight. Just make sure they also stream the whole thing or relegate it to TSN2. Maybe bring in PJ to help. She's been fantastic. I have not met a single person throughout the season or at Nationals who felt that the new schedule was a good idea. Not a single person.
    Well, it doesn't matter at this point in time what Skate Canada does. Bold is on the chopping block so the days of great coverage is going to be gone. CTV will probably be the norm, so it's net watching for die hard fans.

    I am so po'd.

  6. #81
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    With Worlds in London next year, I bet that you will be getting some fairly good coverage, especially since Canadian skaters have had such success in Nice this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    I went back and watched O/W's programs before responding to this O/W wuz robbed stuff and I'm afraid I don't share this opinion at all. They looked very junior to me. They were very light in their transitions, and their edges are not deep. Mostly they stand upright and lack the deep knees to contend with any of the teams who finished above them. Nicole does not lock her knees and as a result, their lines suffer. Last, but not least, there is a great deal of distance between the two of them. I could not help but note that they scored 10 points lower at Jr. Worlds than they did at Canadians and that their two lowest PCS scores were for transitions and skating skills.

    Then I watched G&P and I saw speed, deep edges, strong matching lines. I noted that Piper has very strong lines and good positions. As for Tracey Wilson, she noted how close they skated together. They used all levels, while O/W are only using one level. Everything G&P did was more difficult and performed better than O/W.

    O/W are a true junior team with a ways to before they can compete with senior teams. I have no problem with their placement, and they will get full junior team funding.
    Orford and Williams teamed up in the spring of 2010, and won Junior Nationals that year. They competed as junior this year as Thomas was not yet 21. However, for Canadian Nationals they had to compete at the senior level because they were Junior Champions.

    They seem to be very hard workers, judging by the improvements they have made in less than two years, and I for one am not ready to write them off.
    Last edited by slipslidin; 04-08-2012 at 08:21 PM.

  8. #83
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    ... In the interest of not being misunderstood , I just want to point out that I haven't said that O/W should have beaten G/P ... And when I posed the question - should G/P have placed below O/W in the SD ? and answered myself, I don't know... I meant, " I don't know if I would go that far ", but I do think the differential between them was far too great. I guess that's just another way of saying the differential between G/P and W/P was far, far too small.

    Setting aside national vs,international vs.Jr vs Sr scores in all their variations, I think O/W did very well at Jr. World's. The Russian teams were expected to dominate , and there were other very promising teams as well. I'm not saying " wuzrobbed " about their placement at Canadians either. I'm saying everyone except the last flight wuzrobbed by the artificial schedule of the competition. It's particularly noticeable with them , because their scores were deservedly closer to the teams above them than to the teams below...by quite a bit, IIRC

    With G/P, they were marked closer to W/P and V/M than they deserved by a long shot..This promotes a false equivalence and already we see probably otherwise rational people ( sorry to use your question as an example ,Isabella) saying, Will R/H be able to pull up closer to W/P and G/P ..when those two teams and the product they put out this year, shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.(At this stage of the game ). If G/P's marks had been more reasonable , it would be ..can they catch G/P.. and then worry about the next rung in the ladder. The more it's repeated the more people will think of those teams as on a par.

    gotta go mash potatoes..I'll be back
    Last edited by colleen o'neill; 04-08-2012 at 09:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by romanoff81 View Post
    Gilles and Poirier you know will come very prepared next year they think they already have the goods for world and olympic medals i heard Piper say that, weaver and Poje better be on the lookout.
    To me, this comment is evidence of unrealistic hype that is not going to help them at all. W/P are hard worker who "wuz robbed" on a number of occasions, but just worked harder and harder. The evidence is in the international results. This happened over time. G/P have a LOT of work to do to match the lines and edges of W/P. These things take time and a ton of hard work. Tricks won't cut it. I saw some pictures online of V/M compared to G/P in the same SD step. Sorry, but G/P were light years away in quality of lines (they had none), unison, etc. Speed isn't the answer. They need to start from scratch, and build up. It's going to take a few years before they have the goods to contend. There are no short-cuts to the top, despite all the hype, politicking, etc.

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    Such self-confidence is a wonderful thing if it helps you to keep working until you reach your goal. However it seems to me that I heard once of a team who thought they were challenging for silver and ended up ninth. The reality of the situation seemed to them like a crushing defeat.

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    I don't have any expectations that G&P will beat W&P next season, but I think that I don't think that top 10 at Worlds is doable, if the results for Hubbel & O'Donoghue are any indication. They've already got their new SD and are doing full run-throughs.

    And while I do think they were over-scored at Canadians (wasn't everyone?), I don't think that the placements were wrong.

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    It's HUBBELL and DONOHUE

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    It's HUBBELL and DONOHUE
    Yes it is, and they're probably not an easy mark. They also got together this spring and there is no reason to imagine they won't improve.

  14. #89
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    The trouble is that G/P's national bump was far,far greater than anyone else's... I'm sure no one likes national bumps , but they seem to be a fact of life , and we sort of know ( roughly ) what to expect. I think someone pointed out earlier ( was it 'Pogue ? ) That on average 3-4 points would seem to be the norm. V/M didn't get much of one ( if any ) but of course their marks are so high it's not so doable. W/P got no more than the average , compared with what they had been scoring throughout the season and of course, more would have pushed them controversially close to V/M , and the closer you get to the top the narrower the margins between those couples will become, because there is an upper limit ..But considering W/P received just barely under the 100 mark for their FD at 4CC and just barely over 100 at Worlds..their bump turns out to have been almost no bump at all.

    Then there's the problem of our lyin' eyes.. I don't think any objective observer could justify G/P coming to under 6 points of W/P in the FD and over 10 points ( that's a big gap !) ahead of the tight group of 3 below them. No rationalization is possible...I don't think anyone can make a plausible case that there was no push for that team.

    Did they have entertaining programs ? Yes , absolutely.(the FD more than the SD, IMO)..but that doesn't mean that the content was that close to V/M's or W/P's , or that the programs were skated with anywhere near the level of skill and finesse , that is implied by their scores.
    Last edited by colleen o'neill; 04-09-2012 at 01:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    .


    O/W are a true junior team with a ways to before they can compete with senior teams. I have no problem with their placement, and they will get full junior team funding.
    Do you know this for sure? I have been looking for a definitive answer. Thomas will be 21 this month, so I thought that would make him too old for ISU events, and, of course I thought that the Canadian Junior champions they had to move up. I was afraid they might have ended up in limbo.
    Last edited by slipslidin; 04-09-2012 at 04:23 PM.

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