US Pair Teams of the Past: Where are they?

Nadine · Feb 3, 2012

I was over on wikipedia earlier today to try to find out what happened to pair teams that finished 4th at US Nationals, and whether or not they managed to move up the following years (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Figure_Skating_Championships)?

Of course Donlan & Speroff are what drew me to this research, but in the process I had a wonderful time walking down memory lane.....ahhhh.....the memories. After this I'm going to search the GoldenSkate Archives to see what I wrote during those times. :biggrin:

I didn't go back farther than the mid-90's to now, as that's when my fav pair The Stieglers competed! There's still nobody like Tiffany & Johnny to this day, the charisma they had on the ice, especially her, and the artistry, pizzazz, long lines, gorgeous looks, she so versatile from a ballerina one moment to Aretha Franklin the next, lol.

Anyhow, I was surprised to see that they never got higher than 4th at Nationals. Such a shame, if only Tiffany didn't grow so tall, even taking up ice dance didn't work out.

By the way, I do remember Jenni Meno & Todd Sand (& my eldest sister does as well; she's the one that pointed them both out at this year's Nationals). I think Jenni & Todd, along with the Stieglers, had the best "look" on the ice, wherein they truly exemplified the ideal, that is "two shall skate as one; two halves of a perfect whole". But they were always winners once they left their old partners & paired up, it was magic (reminiscent of Denney & Coughlin; knock on wood). (;^)

I'm more concerned with those that finished 4th at Nationals, such as The Stieglers, and whether or not they managed to move on up. The Stieglers never managed that feat, nor did Amanda Magarian & Jered Guzman (btw I don't recall these two at all except his name that's all), Jennifer Don & Jonathan Hunt (vaguely recall her being kinda heavy), Tiffany Scott & Rusty Fein (I do recall her b/c she left her severely injured partner for another), and Tiffany Vise & Derek Trent (she's still competing but with a different partner and was the first to land a throw 4S in competiton!). That's 5 pairs that never managed to attain greater heights then 4th place at Nationals.

BUT, on a positive note, the following *did* manage to climb from 4th on up:

Shelby Lyons & Brian Wells (odd pair, he was way older than her & short, not aesthetically pleasing on the ice, think she outgrew him) ~ highest placement 2nd in 1998.
Stephanie Stiegler & John Zimmerman (wonderful look on the ice, both gorgeous, then he left her for Kyoko Ina!) ~ highest placement 3rd in 1997.
Stephanie Kalesavich & Aaron Parchem (another gorgeous pair, like Barbie & Ken out there) ~ highest placement 3rd in 2002.
Rena Inoue & John Baldwin (first pair team in history to land a throw 3A!) ~ 1st place in 2004 & 2006.

Amanda Evora & Mark Ladwig (longest partnership thus far, 10 years!) ~ 2nd place in 2010 & 2011.

So that's 5 pair teams that managed to better than 4th place finish at Nationals!

Therefore it evens out, Donlan & Speroff can go either way, here's hoping they go UP!

^D

By the way, during my research I recall Aaron Parchem's first partner, the stunning blonde Stephanie Kalesavich, and that absolutely breathtaking "Swan Lift" she used to do. OMG, it was simply breathtaking, I wish someone else would do this but I've never seen it since they performed it 15+ years ago (will have to watch them again on youtube; so glad he managed to go to the 2006 Olympics with his second partner, the equally lovely Marcy Hinzmann). If only Stephanie could've managed those sbs jumps, especially her 3S, she tried so hard, but always came up short in rotation.

Then I think about those extremely rare ones that come out swinging, right from the starting block they're stars, which includes Caydee Denney; only together less than 2 yrs. with Jeremy Barrett and tada she hits a home run and goes to the Olympics on her 1st try! And now it looks like she'll even have better success with John Coughlin, who can really show her off due to his fantastic height.
To a lesser extent there was Keauna McLaughlin, who also was a star her first time in seniors, winning both 2008 & 2009 Nationals, but bombing in 2010, never made it to the Olympics.

Finally, whatever happend to US Pairs of the Past? What are they doing nowadays? I know that Craig Joeright (so handsome btw) went on to win Adult Nationals in 2008; btw when he & his old partner, Larisa Spielberg, competed back in 2000-2003 I really thought they would attain greater heights, so disappointed that they didn't. They too had that ideal "look" on the ice imho.

That said, I haven't been this excited about a pair (i.e. Donlan & Speroff) since G&G, and that's saying a lot. So many have come & gone throughout the decades that you realize how fragile their time is when they are competing, that's why they have to make the best of it while they're still young. :thumbsup:

Nadine · Feb 3, 2012

Found an old video of Kalesavich & Parchem on youtube, as seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTCnhVrTIyg

You will note that at 3:30 & 6:00 that's where the "Swan Lift" comes in.

Wow, just seeing them again I realize how much is missing at Nationals, wish they were still competing, think they would do even better with COP.

More videos of this stunning pair:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI-AtXPh3I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDT3eDwPEbs

IIRC Stephanie Kalesavich had to quit at age 17 because her family couldn't afford it anymore, there were 5 or 6 daughters in the family (no boys), and after missing out on making the 2002 Olympic Team she quit.

Thank goodness Aaron Parchem was able to continue on and find Marcy Hinzmann in the process, both making the 2006 Olympic Team.

tulosai · Feb 3, 2012

Nadine said:
I was over on wikipedia earlier today to try to find out what happened to pair teams that finished 4th at US Nationals, and whether or not they managed to move up the following years (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Figure_Skating_Championships)?

Of course Donlan & Speroff are what drew me to this research, but in the process I had a wonderful time walking down memory lane.....ahhhh.....the memories. After this I'm going to search the GoldenSkate Archives to see what I wrote during those times.

I didn't go back farther than the mid-90's to now, as that's when my fav pair The Stieglers competed! There's still nobody like Tiffany & Johnny to this day, the charisma they had on the ice, especially her, and the artistry, pizzazz, long lines, gorgeous looks, she so versatile from a ballerina one moment to Aretha Franklin the next, lol. Anyhow, I was surprised to see that they never got higher than 4th at Nationals. Such a shame, if only Tiffany didn't grow so tall, even taking up ice dance didn't work out.

By the way, I do remember Jenni Meno & Todd Sand (& my eldest sister does as well; she's the one that pointed them both out at this year's Nationals). I think Jenni & Todd, along with the Stieglers, had the best "look" on the ice, wherein they truly exemplified the ideal, that is "two shall skate as one; two halves of a perfect whole". But they were always winners once they left their old partners & paired up, it was magic (reminiscent of Denney & Coughlin; knock on wood). (;^)

I'm more concerned with those that finished 4th at Nationals, such as The Stieglers, and whether or not they managed to move on up. The Stieglers never managed that feat, nor did Amanda Magarian & Jered Guzman (btw I don't recall these two at all except his name that's all), Jennifer Don & Jonathan Hunt (vaguely recall her being kinda heavy), Tiffany Scott & Rusty Fein (I do recall her b/c she left her severely injured partner for another), and Tiffany Vise & Derek Trent (she's still competing but with a different partner and was the first to land a throw 4S in competiton!). That's 5 pairs that never managed to attain greater heights then 4th place at Nationals. BUT, on a positive note, the following *did* manage to climb from 4th on up:

Shelby Lyons & Brian Wells (odd pair, he was way older than her & short, not aesthetically pleasing on the ice, think she outgrew him) ~ highest placement 2nd in 1998.
Stephanie Stiegler & John Zimmerman (wonderful look on the ice, both gorgeous, then he left her for Kyoko Ina!) ~ highest placement 3rd in 1997.
Stephanie Kalesavich & Aaron Parchem (another gorgeous pair, like Barbie & Ken out there) ~ highest placement 3rd in 2002.
Rena Inoue & John Baldwin (first pair team in history to land a throw 3A!) ~ 1st place in 2004 & 2006.
Amanda Evora & Mark Ladwig (longest partnership thus far, 10 years!) ~ 2nd place in 2010 & 2011.

So that's 5 pair teams that managed to better than 4th place finish at Nationals! Therefore it evens out, Donlan & Speroff can go either way, here's hoping they go UP! ^D

By the way, during my research I recall Aaron Parchem's first partner, the stunning blonde Stephanie Kalesavich, and that absolutely breathtaking "Swan Lift" she used to do. OMG, it was simply breathtaking, I wish someone else would do this but I've never seen it since they performed it 15+ years ago (will have to watch them again on youtube; so glad he managed to go to the 2006 Olympics with his second partner, the equally lovely Marcy Hinzmann). If only Stephanie could've managed those sbs jumps, especially her 3S, she tried so hard, but always came up short in rotation.

Then I think about those extremely rare ones that come out swinging, right from the starting block they're stars, which includes Caydee Denney; only together less than 2 yrs. with Jeremy Barrett and tada she hits a home run and goes to the Olympics on her 1st try! And now it looks like she'll even have better success with John Coughlin, who can really show her off due to his fantastic height.
To a lesser extent there was Keauna McLaughlin, who also was a star her first time in seniors, winning both 2008 & 2009 Nationals, but bombing in 2010, never made it to the Olympics.

Finally, whatever happend to US Pairs of the Past? What are they doing nowadays? I know that Craig Joeright (so handsome btw) went on to win Adult Nationals in 2008; btw when he & his old partner, Larisa Spielberg, competed back in 2000-2003 I really thought they would attain greater heights, so disappointed that they didn't. They too had that ideal "look" on the ice imho.

That said, I haven't been this excited about a pair (i.e. Donlan & Speroff) since G&G, and that's saying a lot. So many have come & gone throughout the decades that you realize how fragile their time is when they are competing, that's why they have to make the best of it while they're still young. :thumbsup:

Don't forget Marley and Brubaker- they moved from 4th to 2nd just this year

So it's 6 not 5.

Thanks for starting this thread. I'm watching youtube videos of Meno and Sand now- I forgot how much I liked them.

blue_idealist · Feb 4, 2012

Don't forget Katie Orscher and Garrett Lucash! I miss them but don't know what they're doing either.

Serious Business · Feb 4, 2012

blue_idealist said:
Don't forget Katie Orscher and Garrett Lucash! I miss them but don't know what they're doing either.

If I remember correctly, that was the team that openly said they had to quit because it was no longer possible to fund their competitive skating despite their ongoing success. Therein lies the problem, I think. Skating is hugely expensive. Multiply some of the expenses by two, then divide the (already lesser) winnings by two, and you got yourself a pretty unfriendly balance. Without the state sponsorship of countries like Russia, China or even Japan, US pair skaters are going to have a really tough time competing for long unless one or both partners come from money.

There are other factors involved, too. Americans athletes, by nature, are very competitive. That's a very intrinsic part of the US' already jockish culture. I think US pair skaters are more likely to call it quits because they aren't getting the competitive results they want. And again, the fact that such things are self-arranged, rather than arranged by a national organization, makes it more likely for pairs to break up and/or retire.

Another factor is that pair skating has gotten harder, a lot harder, in my opinion, since the COP. Looking at some of the old videos posted above, I can't believe those teams got away with such simple lifts and transitions. But isn't this increase in difficulty true of all disciplines? Yes, but, in pairs, there are two people involved. They both have to make considerable progress, or the team is going to remain at the level of the weaker chain. And pairs skating demands a wide set of unique and sometimes paradoxical skills: size disparity helps hugely in some areas, but it hurts unison and one or both partners' solo jumping ability. This is no doubt incredibly frustrating and difficult, which again results in more attrition in a system where pair teams organize themselves.

And all that goes back to money again. Given the expenses in pairs, it's likely one partner's family is ponying up more resources. And money brings all kinds of problems and propriety. If one partner isn't progressing as fast, or there are joint elements that the team has trouble getting (with no clear fault whose it is), there's going to be blame and drama. Whoever is paying more is going to get mad, whoever is paying less is going to feel resentful.

I also think there are less pairs men available in the US, although I could be wrong. I do know in Russia and China, boys get plucked out, sometimes from totally unrelated fields, to participate in pairs skating. In the US, well, it has to be a bit more self-selected, and the boys aren't rushing to skate. On the other hand, the girls are. And even if this scarcity is just proportional (too little men, too many women), that ratio imbalance creates incentive and opportunity for male partners to be poached, which I bet happens all the time.

A lot of the factors above applies to ice dancing, too. And yet there seems to be less attrition in US ice dancing (not to mention much greater success now). I think the reason is that ice dancing requires a set of skills that are less paradoxical, and easier for a team to improve on together. The division of labor in pairs is really quite stark, with the man and woman doing vastly different things a lot of the times. As a result, there is probably more friction and disparity in pairs than ice dancing, which again leads to the sturm and drang and all that.

All this means US pair teams aren't likely to stay together long, and that one or both partners will quit soon. That's not a recipe for success. I don't imagine US skating culture to change much to remedy that. I think for the US to get a truly great pairs team someday, it would have to depend on serendipity. In other words, don't expect it to happen, and if it does, don't expect it to happen twice.

tulosai · Feb 4, 2012

Serious Business said:
If I remember correctly, that was the team that openly said they had to quit because it was no longer possible to fund their competitive skating despite their ongoing success. Therein lies the problem, I think. Skating is hugely expensive. Multiply some of the expenses by two, then divide the (already lesser) winnings by two, and you got yourself a pretty unfriendly balance. Without the state sponsorship of countries like Russia, China or even Japan, US pair skaters are going to have a really tough time competing for long unless one or both partners come from money.

There are other factors involved, too. Americans athletes, by nature, are very competitive. That's a very intrinsic part of the US' already jockish culture. I think US pair skaters are more likely to call it quits because they aren't getting the competitive results they want. And again, the fact that such things are self-arranged, rather than arranged by a national organization, makes it more likely for pairs to break up and/or retire.

Another factor is that pair skating has gotten harder, a lot harder, in my opinion, since the COP. Looking at some of the old videos posted above, I can't believe those teams got away with such simple lifts and transitions. But isn't this increase in difficulty true of all disciplines? Yes, but, in pairs, there are two people involved. They both have to make considerable progress, or the team is going to remain at the level of the weaker chain. And pairs skating demands a wide set of unique and sometimes paradoxical skills: size disparity helps hugely in some areas, but it hurts unison and one or both partners' solo jumping ability. This is no doubt incredibly frustrating and difficult, which again results in more attrition in a system where pair teams organize themselves.

And all that goes back to money again. Given the expenses in pairs, it's likely one partner's family is ponying up more resources. And money brings all kinds of problems and propriety. If one partner isn't progressing as fast, or there are joint elements that the team has trouble getting (with no clear fault whose it is), there's going to be blame and drama. Whoever is paying more is going to get mad, whoever is paying less is going to feel resentful.

I also think there are less pairs men available in the US, although I could be wrong. I do know in Russia and China, boys get plucked out, sometimes from totally unrelated fields, to participate in pairs skating. In the US, well, it has to be a bit more self-selected, and the boys aren't rushing to skate. On the other hand, the girls are. And even if this scarcity is just proportional (too little men, too many women), that ratio imbalance creates incentive and opportunity for male partners to be poached, which I bet happens all the time.

A lot of the factors above applies to ice dancing, too. And yet there seems to be less attrition in US ice dancing (not to mention much greater success now). I think the reason is that ice dancing requires a set of skills that are less paradoxical, and easier for a team to improve on together. The division of labor in pairs is really quite stark, with the man and woman doing vastly different things a lot of the times. As a result, there is probably more friction and disparity in pairs than ice dancing, which again leads to the sturm and drang and all that.

All this means US pair teams aren't likely to stay together long, and that one or both partners will quit soon. That's not a recipe for success. I don't imagine US skating culture to change much to remedy that. I think for the US to get a truly great pairs team someday, it would have to depend on serendipity. In other words, don't expect it to happen, and if it does, don't expect it to happen twice.

I don't really have much to add but thank you for your thoughtful comments. I had thought about a lot of this before in some level (particularly the money bits) but you laid it out very well and provided me with some real food for thought. I know there was some talk here or at FSU a while ago about how USFSA should consider using money as an incentive to get pairs here to stay together- i.e. make envelope money greater the longer you are together such as a 15% bonus if it is going to be your third year together, a 25% bonus if it will be your fourth or fifth year, a 30 or 33% bonus if it is your fifth year plus. It might not be practical but I do bet it would see some results, because I very much do agree that part of what is going on is money, and if money were less of an issue, pairs would be more likely to stick it out even with things such as competitiveness etc.

Nadine · Feb 4, 2012

Oops, correction, it wasn't Tiffany Scott that left a severely injured partner, rather it was Laura Handy whom left Paul Binneboise (thanks to the kind & thoughtful poster that PMed me about it).

Also, I wasn't able to search for my posts in the archives here at GS no further than 2003 as that's when I first signed up due to Adrian Chew's figure skating board being no more (that's where I used to post pre-2003), and then of course before that there was no internet for me until 1998/1999.

Though I have been watching figure skating since the days of Dorothy Hamill.

^)

And on that note how can one forget the one & only pair team of Tai Babilonai & Randy Gardner, the first pair team from the USA that I can remember. Nothing more to add for those that remember them well and were alive to see them skate, you & I know how truly great they were; was just so happy to see them make a comeback in the mid-90's when the Golden Age of Skating was going on; still have old VCR tapes of them from that time which I am unable to watch b/c I need to buy a VCR (DVD all the way nowawadys).

The Carruthers were a sweet pair team but I was never able to get into them b/c they didn't look like a pair imho; Peter towered over Kitty and they just didn't look like a pair. Worse though was Calla Urbanski & Rocky Marval; so mismatched in every way possible with not even good looks to give them a boost, athletic, that's it. But I don't want to mention pairs I didn't enjoy, know only that if I haven't mentioned them there's a reason.

Regards finances, I will give you that Serious Business, you have a point there, but I disagree about COP being harder (bs; I will never swallow the kool-aid, let it rest). Back to finances, that's been true since the beginning of time, everything's easier when one has money. Ala Sonja Henie and also the Stieglers (IIRC their family owned several German car companies). But money alone won't do it, one also has to have talent, do the tricks, and be willing to put in all the hard work. Case in point Kristi Yamaguchi; her family even paid for Rudy Galindo's expenses when they were a pair team. Nowadays I read how so many pair teams have jobs on the side to pay their expenses (e.g. Andrew Speroff works at American Eagle; and he lives or lived with Gretchen's family per his MySpace). And a lot of them are coaches on the side (e.g. Peter Biver). I don't know about the rest, but I would bet most of them are not independently wealthy, or do not come from wealthy families, therefore they moonlight on the side. My hat goes off to them for loving pair skating so much they'll do what's necessary in order to continue doing what they love. :love:

By the way, I didn't put Marley & Brubaker on the list (even though they finished 4th last year) because they're still skating and are a young pair team with many years ahead of them still; there book hasn't been written yet. Also, I only listed pair teams that went UPWARDS, not downwards, thus I also didn't add Spielberg & Joeright because they went from bronze in 2000 all the way down to pewter in 2003; likewise Orscher & Lucash started out at the top and never went down to 4th, therefore I didn't add them to the list either.

Nadine · Feb 4, 2012

ALL RIGHT!!!!! :love:

I just checked my local listings and it states that the "US Championships Skating Spectacular" starts at 11AM PST here in Seattle, which means I can watch Donlan & Speroff skate to "Time To Say Goodbye": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUkSrH3cH20

I didn't think I would be able to do so because I take care of my older sister's kids on the weekend, but it's on early enough that I *will* have time, YES!!!!! :yay: :clap:

Olympia · Feb 4, 2012

Nadine, I hope you're watching. So far Evora and Ladwig have skated, and the way you feel about Donlan/Speroff, I feel about Evora/Ladwig. Their exhibition skate has lifts that made my heart spin around in my body. And they have such smoothness and flow...certainly part of it is the longevity of their relationship, something that underlines the points that Serious Business made. More about those points later.

Like you, I just adored the Stieglers. Tiffany was born to be in the spotlight, and I wondered why she stopped skating. She had that natural charisma that comes along just once in awhile--Naomi Nari Nam had it also. I am so sorry that neither pairs nor ice dancing worked out for her.

Back to Serious Business's serious business. I think you brought out some really excellent points about pairs skating. For example, I never thought to compare the man/lady task ratio of pairs to that of ice dancing. The minute I read that comment, I realized how obviously right you are. I agree with your other observations as well, especially of course the ones about money and its sources. Perhaps another aspect of the pairs problem is that it's rarer to find a team with the height and strength differential needed for modern pairs. Ice dancers just have to look good together, but because of the nature of modern pairs lifts, it's preferable to find a guy big enough to power-lift the lady (yet still able to handle jumps) and a lady tiny enough to be thrown around (yet still strong enough for jumps and mature enough so the guy doesn't look like a child molester). Yipes! It's a lot easier to achieve when a national program chooses the kids from anywhere it feels like it and then takes them in for round-the-clock subsidized training. Not on this continent.

Nadine · Feb 4, 2012

Of course I'm watching that's why I posted. :laugh:

But am feeling extremely down now because NBC has decided to chack (i.e. not show) the Pairs Pewter Medalists. Thus far they've shown the Sr. Pairs Bronze Medalists (E&L), Jr. National Mens Champion (Nathan Chen), Jr. National Ladies Champion (Gracie Gold), Sr. Ice Dance Bronze Medalists (H&D), and now they're showing a *repeat* of Ashley Wagner's FS.

WHY?????????? Lol, I feel like Nancy Kerrigan asking "Why Me, Why Me???, Why????". :rofl:

But seriously, this is sooooo disappointing. To show all the others but not the Sr. Pairs Pewter Medalists, what a shame, an utter complete shame.

Nadine · Feb 4, 2012

They just showed Marley & Brubaker (lol judging by their costumes I thought they were going to be skating to "Singin' in the Rain" again). And though I wish Rockne all the best (think what Keauna did to him was awful btw), I don't care that much for either of his pairings, though the one with McLaughlin was more magical imho.

I've watched the Sr. Pairs Awards Ceremony several times on IN, and Mary Beth is the only one not smiling (she only smiled when it was time to take pictures). All the other ladies were smiling & happy, even E&L, with Gretchen & Andrew the happiest imho. Only matched by Denney & Coughlin. Caydee reminds me of Rachael Flatt, soooooo much joie de vivre & effervescence, she's always happy, even backstage, that's part of her charm, besides her desire to be the very best!

I'm looking forward to watching these two today.

By the way, if anybody gets the time, I suggest watching Rockne on youtube wherein he's teaching a little girl named Annabelle how to pair skate, totally adorable, it's made me a fan of Rockne the person, as well as the skater. :love:

shan · Feb 4, 2012

I thought Gretchen and Andrew were so cute during the medal ceremony. I don't know what happened with their bows :laugh:

, but they looked thrilled. I was hoping that NBC would include their exhibition today, especially since they were barely mentioned in the Pairs LP broadcast.

tulosai · Feb 4, 2012

Nadine said:
They just showed Marley & Brubaker (lol judging by their costumes I thought they were going to be skating to "Singin' in the Rain" again). And though I wish Rockne all the best (think what Keauna did to him was awful btw), I don't care that much for either of his pairings, though the one with McLaughlin was more magical imho.

I've watched the Sr. Pairs Awards Ceremony several times on IN, and Mary Beth is the only one not smiling (she only smiled when it was time to take pictures). All the other ladies were smiling & happy, even E&L, with Gretchen & Andrew the happiest imho. Only matched by Denney & Coughlin. Caydee reminds me of Rachael Flatt, soooooo much joie de vivre & effervescence, she's always happy, even backstage, that's part of her charm, besides her desire to be the very best! I'm looking forward to watching these two today.

By the way, if anybody gets the time, I suggest watching Rockne on youtube wherein he's teaching a little girl named Annabelle how to pair skate, totally adorable, it's made me a fan of Rockne the person, as well as the skater.

I haven't watched the Awards Ceremony, but I realy do have to say that I don't think I've EVER seen someone look happier than Mary Beth when they found out they were in 2nd in the K&C. Who knows?

mskater93 · Feb 6, 2012

Maybe MB was just done in (tired) after putting it all out there. It happens...

Nadine · Feb 6, 2012

Not to single Mary Beth Marley out, I noticed the same thing during the Ladies Award Ceremony (except Alissa, she's always smiling). That is, the silver medalist excluded from the other medalists; in Alissa'a case it wasn't by choice from what I observed, however for Marley & Brubaker I would say it was by choice. Though Rockne wasn't as glum looking as his partner. I think in Rockne's case he already knows what's like to stand on the podium, as he has done so many times during his career, whereas Mary Beth is still not used to the procedure, only having stood on the podium twice now; pewter medalist last year and silver medalist this year.

This makes me think that the silver medalist is generally the most uncomfortable position; that is just missed out on gold, kicking oneself, whereas the bronze medalist is just happy to have medalled, and especially the pewter medalists (which is only recognized during Nationals IIRC).

And the gold medalist, nothing need be said... :party2:

Nadine · Feb 6, 2012

In regards to the pair team of Donlan & Speroff, I wanted to add that judging by 2010 Jr. Pairs Nationals, Gretchen hasn't always been as light as a feather, she was definitely not as waif-like as she is today. This makes me even more of a fan of her, not only is she a vegetarian, but she obviously realized that the lighter she is the easier it is for her partner Andrew (whom suffered two stress fractures to his lower back in 2001) to lift & carry her. Very thoughtful young lady to address this and do something about it. No wonder she received the Skating Club of Boston's 2011 "Most Improved Skater" Award.

On the contraire, I know of a f.s. fan whose daughter has been skating for at least a decade now, and she's always bitching about the girls that are slim, attributing it to eating disorders, et al, going on & on about her daughter's "healthy" figure, it makes me wonder why they're both still in skating then, sheesh no wonder I never hear about her daughter ever winning any competitions these past 10 years. :rolleye:

There are those that do, and those that *do not*, easy to see which category Gretchen falls into.

By the way, in Katia Gordeeva's book "My Sergei", I recall her saying she always tried to be light so that it would be easier for Sergei to lift & throw her, especially come competition time. Great role model for all skaters, at the same time she had power & stroking galore, which proves you can be both.

^)

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO PAIR SKATERS, ESPECIALLY THE LADY PAIR SKATERS!!!!

Tonichelle · Feb 6, 2012

I don't think dismissing real problems with eating disorders by saying they're being considerate the smaller they get helps. It's not like it DOESN'T happen - ask Jenny Kirk or any number of pairs and ice dancers. It's not inconsiderate to stay at a healthy weight/eating habit.

Serious Business · Feb 6, 2012

To add to Tonichelle's point, Brooke Castile said in an interview a few months back that the best thing about quitting competitive skating is that Benjamin Okolski, her former partner, is no longer around to yell at her whenever she eats. I found that incredibly creepy and sad. It may not be a matter of a female skater being "considerate", but rather being picked apart by coaches, her partner, judges and whoever else. The bottom line is, nobody should ever have to sacrifice their physical and mental health to that degree for a sport. It's an incredibly hard line to judge, but any woman who can't stay at the proper weight for a pairs partner without damaging herself should get a new partner or get out of the sport. Let the naturally thin/tiny girls have at it, you can have a nice, sane healthy life elsewhere.

Nadine · Feb 6, 2012

Like I said, if one can't handle it, then quit. This is true of all sports, as well as ballet (even acting; I recall once Drew Barrymore said it's her job to maintain her weight and not show up to work looking like a lard ***). The ones that can handle it will strike a healthy balance between the two, so that s/he is thin enough to excel in their sport whilst not going to extremes and having no energy nor strength to do the jumps/throws/et al.

This brings to mind something I read once in a Christine Brennan book, the contrast between Michelle Kwan and Nicole Bobek at the time. She observed after a National Championships the two at a restaurant, Nicole ordered a greasy huge Philly Steak Sandwhich with fries, while Michelle Kwan was observed eating a nice plate of sushi (her favorite dish). And that's the way their skating went, nice parallel between what they were consuming and how they placed. (;^) And lordy there was Tonya Harding, one look at her "thunder thighs" would tell the story if she was going to hit or not, her jumps that is.

The greatest of champions are extremely disciplined and conscious of what they put into their body and how to strike that *perfect* balance. Case in point, Evgeni Plushenko, he doesn't need anybody to tell him to get in shape, he just does it, which is why he's a 3-time Olympic Medalist, 3-time World Champion, 7-time European Champion, and 9-time Russian National Champion.

As the old saying goes "the cream shall always rise to the top". Truer words were never spoken. Champions are made, not born.

tulosai · Feb 7, 2012

Nadine said:
Like I said, if one can't handle it, then quit. This is true of all sports, as well as ballet (even acting; I recall once Drew Barrymore said it's her job to maintain her weight and not show up to work looking like a lard ***). The ones that can handle it will strike a healthy balance between the two, so that s/he is thin enough to excel in their sport whilst not going to extremes and having no energy nor strength to do the jumps/throws/et al.

This brings to mind something I read once in a Christine Brennan book, the contrast between Michelle Kwan and Nicole Bobek at the time. She observed after a National Championships the two at a restaurant, Nicole ordered a greasy huge Philly Steak Sandwhich with fries, while Michelle Kwan was observed eating a nice plate of sushi (her favorite dish). And that's the way their skating went, nice parallel between what they were consuming and how they placed. (;^) And lordy there was Tonya Harding, one look at her "thunder thighs" would tell the story if she was going to hit or not, her jumps that is.

The greatest of champions are extremely disciplined and conscious of what they put into their body and how to strike that *perfect* balance. Case in point, Evgeni Plushenko, he doesn't need anybody to tell him to get in shape, he just does it, which is why he's a 3-time Olympic Medalist, 3-time World Champion, 7-time European Champion, and 9-time Russian National Champion.

As the old saying goes "the cream shall always rise to the top". Truer words were never spoken. Champions are made, not born.

I think you have an extremely simplistic attitude toward this. I agree with 'striking a balance' as far as that goes but in your original post you flat out said something to the effect of that women should get their bodies as light as possible for their partners. Perhaps, giving you the benefit of the doubt, you meant as light as healthily possible, but I flat out reject the idea that skinnier skinnier skinnier is always better. The best example of this is Tanith Belbin, who has admitted to struggling with an eating disorder and where Tanith and Ben BOTH have said that once she gained some weight she was easier to lift because she had more energy and muscle and could help him.

I certainly agree that these ladies have to keep themselves in shape. I also certainly agree that sometimes the correct thing is for a pairs or dance lady to lose 5 pounds if she can. But more often than not these girls are VERY thin anyway and trying to lose weight to be infinitesimally easier to lift is neither healthy nor advisable.

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