Dornbush to replace Abbott at 4CC's | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Dornbush to replace Abbott at 4CC's

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
another injury :no:
well goodluck to mr. Dornbush and hopefully Abbott will be fully ready by Worlds
 

Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
why not Armin? His rank is higher and can save USFSA air fare and hotel money!
 
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Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
I think at some point USFS must have decided internally that senior worlds/Olympic team selection will hew as closely to national results as possible, and they just won't overthink it. But for everything else, including junior worlds, they're going to strategize the heck out of their picks. I can almost see the logic in that, except I don't (why do it for lesser comps but not worlds?). The real problem, though, is that they're doing this without publicizing it and coming up with a consistent set of rules is unacceptable.

What I think would be reasonable and easy is for the USFS to stop overthinking 4CC. It's not that important or prestigious a competition. Its main relevance, IMO, is stacking up world ranking points that might affect a skater's skate order, or in some cases, lets a skater get a qualifying score for the GP series. All that applies to worlds, too, only, ya know, that competition actually has gravitas.

For 4CC, the USFS should just ask the top #(depending on spots qualified) of skaters from nationals in order of their finish whether they want to go or not. The skaters and their teams can decide for themselves whether it's a good strategic move for them. There may be some allowances made for a skater with a lower place finish but desperately needs the comp for ranking/qualifying reasons to beg higher ranked skaters to relinquish their spots. But it should be up to the top finishing skaters at nationals to make that decision.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
That's more or less the way it has always been. But I certainly have never seen a skater as low as 13th place at Nationals get a 4CC spot or a Worlds spot, or for that matter be named to the alternates list (which might result in a spot).

The first alternate very, very often gets the 4CC's spot, for that matter.
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
The first alternate very, very often gets the 4CC's spot, for that matter.

That's very true, someone often drops out - though this year I thought maybe not, since it was in the US and only Davis and White have really solid international reps. I think it's too bad for Jeremy because I think this would have been a chance for him to solidify his place as one of the top 5 (top three in my mind) skaters in the world. He didn't really do that during the GP season, and I think it would have helped him for Worlds.

Dornbush did finish ahead of Armin in the LP, though behind Douglas Razzano. Seems like the USFSA is just deciding they think Dornbush has a more long term upside, and that his SP meltdown was a fluke. I don't think racism played a factor, though handsomeness and marketability may have, though not in overt ways.

I am a little torn. In someways I thinks it's OK for the committee to look at past results and other factors (like who is most likely to have a solid quad soon, or who can deliver the best PCS int'lly) to determine teams for int'l events. But it is unkind to those that get passed over, a clear system would be good. Armin did not do himself a lot of favors with his LP, imho, but he's in the middle of a bunch of changes coaching wise and I think should have a better program next year. Razzano would have been my pick to go to 4CC, 4th best LP at Nat's and I just kinda like him.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
It's not fair to Armin or the others who finished ahead of Dornbush, no, but it has nothing to do with race. They didn't exactly ask Carriere or Razzano either (I don't think).

Funny that last season they went strictly by Nationals results and picked Bradley/Dornbush/Miner and used that reasoning to defend their decision but now are deviating from the Nationals results. I know it's 4CC not Worlds but it's still kind of hypocritical.

That being said, I still hope Dornbush does well and I know he didn't skate like his usual self at Nationals so I can see the logical defenses for an exception.

Yes, it's curious. It seems they are not willing to raise eyebrows by leaving any of the podium finishers off the world teams but are doing what they please with the 4CC teams and the order of the alternates and hoping no one notices.

I do think that this year's world team are no brainers - Who would you put on the team besides Jeremy and Adam, anyway? There really isn't anyone more talented or convincingly more consistent. I believe it's the same with the women. It's not that Ashley and Alissa don't have their problems but no other lady has demonstrated the talent/consistency to justify taking a spot. In that sense, it's strange that Alissa wasn't offered a spot on the 4CC team. Not that I don't like our ladies 4CC team... but just saying. I too wish there was more transparency. Transparency should be key if figure skating hopes to be a "real" sport.
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
I don't know why Dornbush was picked over Armin, but I don't think anyone should automatically cry racism without knowing any other facts. This knee-jerk reaction makes it very hard for anyone to judge or critique anything, ever. As a teacher, I have been called racist when I've had to reprimand a student or say no to whatever they asked. It's only been a few times that it's happened, thank goodness, but it's not a fair accusation unless you have some more info to back it up.

Since Middle Easterners are considered Caucasian, and he's not that much darker than the Latino Rudy Galindo, the Italian Brian Boitano or the Greek Evan Lysacek, I would guess that the reason has to do with something else.

Here's a scary thought: I wonder if they doubt that Jeremy will be able to go to Worlds. Armin may be needed to step in and replace him there. Maybe they're not planning on sending Ross Miner as the alternate to Worlds.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Ross is already named to the Worlds team as first alternate. I have never seen them change those rankings, unless a skater was injured, and there was time to reassign a 3rd alternate. So I don't think that's what they are planning.

This season Ross is ranked 27th & Ricky is 30th on the season's list (these are lower than they will end up. Neither went to senior B's AFAIK, neither made GPF, and Europeans has taken place but 4CC's has not. Presumably whoever goes to 4CC's will get some points, even if not many.

http://www.isuresults.com/ws/wr/wrmen.htm

The highest ranked US man for this season is Abbott at 10th, Brown is at 22nd (JGPF winner).
Rippon is 24th. Armin is 70th.

If you do overall World standings (again realizing that Europeans has taken place and 4CC's has not), and realizing they go back 3 seasons,
http://www.isuresults.com/ws/wr/wrmen.htm

Abbott 7th
Rippon 14th
Lysacek 25th
Dornbush 27th (won JGPF last year)
Messing 29th
Mroz 33rd
Miner 35th (missed half of 2 different years)
Armin 39th
Brown 41st (won JGPF this year)
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
I'm really sorry to hear about Abbot (although glad to read that his stepdad is doing fine now!). He said earlier this season, like after GPF's but before nationals, that he wanted to put the quad toe triple toe in his short at 4CC's....and since it seems like he has thus far stuck to his plans, it is too bad he doesn't have this comp to practice that combo in a comp.

Really, really hoping for a full recovery and that he is in great shape for worlds.

I understand what Doris is saying about rankings, but I think it feels unfair that Armin (did they ask Miner?) is not the first alternate on the 4CC list. And, doesn't he train where the comp is being held? Anyway, hopefully this will be good for Dornbush and he can regroup for a stronger season next year.

I missed earlier discussions of this, but someone above said that Alissa was not asked to go to 4CC's - is that correct, and if so, why?
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
There's obviously some kind of strategy for "spreading the wealth" of slots between Worlds and 4CCs. Worlds gets the top finishers; for 4CCs they may send the top finishers or they may not, depending if there are other skaters who could arguably benefit from being at that competition more than a Worlds member going to 4CCs.

Last year, Richard Dornbush was the US silver medalist and he did not get the option to go to 4CCs. None of the men's Worlds team was asked to go; they simply named Jeremy, Adam, and Armin. Richard could've benefited from going because he had competed on the junior grand prix that season. Was that unfair to Richard, that he wasn't given the option of going to 4CCs last year? I don't think it was exceedingly unfair to him last year, and I don't think it's exceedingly unfair to Armin this year.

The same situation could possibly happen to the ladies. Rachael Flatt, who finished behind Christina Gao, is the first alternate to 4CCs. Gao was named to the junior worlds team and is the third alternate for 4CCs. Would Christina rather be a higher alternate for 4CCs than go to junior worlds yet again? Maybe, maybe not. They probably didn't ask.
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Thanks for the detective work Doris! Adds some illumination into numbers they might have been looking at. And those numbers would not include placement at Nat'ls this year or last I assume? So maybe Dornbush's silver from last year still has some shine to it.
 

Nadine

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
Well I'll re-type what I wrote late last night on another thread, which has since been taken down because GS unknowingly put up two threads, lol. :D

This reminds me of that time several American women didn't go to Worlds, so they had to go find either the 1st or 2nd Alternate, which was Angela Nikodinov at the time, and when they eventually tracked her down to Bulgaria she wasn't ready. :(

NOTE TO ALL ALTERNATES: be prepared, anything can happen, and I mean anything, even at the last possible second, so be prepared to be called on to do your duty for your country. :cool:
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I like both Ricky and Armin, and am therefore happy for Ricky but sad for Armin. I thought Ricky's horrid SP at Nationals was a fluke, and he did place 5th in the FS, ahead of Armin.
 

Pepe Nero

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
I don't know why Dornbush was picked over Armin, but I don't think anyone should automatically cry racism without knowing any other facts. This knee-jerk reaction makes it very hard for anyone to judge or critique anything, ever. As a teacher, I have been called racist when I've had to reprimand a student or say no to whatever they asked. It's only been a few times that it's happened, thank goodness, but it's not a fair accusation unless you have some more info to back it up.

Since Middle Easterners are considered Caucasian, and he's not that much darker than the Latino Rudy Galindo, the Italian Brian Boitano or the Greek Evan Lysacek, I would guess that the reason has to do with something else.


It's true that no one knows with certainty that racism (or heterosexual/masculine privilege) affected the decision to send Dornbush over Mahbanoozadeh.

However, it is equally true that no one knows with certainty that racism (or heterosexual/masculine privilege) DID NOT affect the decision.

Given how pervasive racism is in the U.S (and everywhere, for that matter), the attitude that we should always presume as a default, in the absence of smoking gun evidence, that racism was not a factor always puzzles me.

People of Middle-Eastern descent may be considered "white" by the U.S. Census Bureau, but that does not reflect the reality of most Americans' perceptions of race in the U.S. right now. I would suspect that most figure skating observers do not consider Mahbanoozadeh white, though they would consider Boitano and Lysacek white. It puzzles me, as well, Poodlepal, that you don't seem to think Galindo experienced discrimination on account of multiple factors.
 
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Pepe Nero

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
I strongly support the calls on here, from Serious Business among others, for the USFSA to make the reasoning behind these decisions public. I think the USFSA should devise a system that weighs two factors against each other to determine who to send to such events: (1) strategy/consequences (who will have the highest finish, who is up-and-coming and needs international experience, exposure, etc.), and (2) deservingness (competitors devote their lives to this sport, and it's tragic when people who skate consistently well get bumped because someone comes out of nowhere and has the best skate of their life).

I think the USFSA could accomplish a good balance between these two factors by devising a point system, whereby the top point earning skaters get the spots at 4CC and Worlds. Skaters would get points based on their final ranks at competitions in the last year. Here's a model of what I have in mind:

50% of points from placement at Nationals
20% of points from placement at previous season's Worlds
30% of points from placements at Grand Prix events (earlier in the same season)

This would disadvantage newer skaters on the scene, but that's kind of the point. It's meant to reward consistent performance over the past year. Just an idea...
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Is Armin going to Worlds, or he is going nowhere? Abott and Adam only for Worlds?
I dont remember how many USA spots are for Worlds.
 

shan

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Is Armin going to Worlds, or he is going nowhere? Abott and Adam only for Worlds?
I dont remember how many USA spots are for Worlds.

The US only has 2 spots for Worlds. Armin's season is done unless both Abbott and Rippon withdraw from Worlds.

I think the decision to name Richard as 1st alternate was very unfair to those ahead of him. So what if he was 5th in the free (I didn't find his free that impressive), he was so bad in the SP. Armin was much better than him in the SP and not that much worse in the free. Richard wasn't all that impressive in the GP series either. I don't understand the thought behind naming someone who is 13th to the alternates list, much less 1st alternate.

No offense to Richard, who I really like, I think the decision stinks!
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
What's with the USFSA? Their selections criteria last season and this are completely different, yet neither make sense or are satisfying to fans. It's as hard to explain or rationalize leaving out Abbott from Worlds last year as it is leapfrogging Dornbush to be the 4CC first alternate. They are either too rigid or too flexible, whichever the least justifiable.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I am totally unable to explain their logic.

Even financially, it makes more sense to send Armin.

1. He was 4th at nationals, and so next in line.
2. He trains in Colorado Springs,CO, so he is used to the altitude, and it won't cost any one any money to send him to 4CCs since he is already there.
 
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