Dornbush to replace Abbott at 4CC's

I always find these "milking the system" a bit humorous, and usually it is used just to demean certain skaters. When Irina was Bielmanning everything the US commentators accused her of milking the system, yet no one accused Kwan of milking the system when she did 7 triple programs. Isn't the point of competing to win these competitions with whatever skill set you have? In fact, if you aren't milking the system I think you need to fire your coach.

Wow, what a flashback! I remember Surya's backflip and her colorful costumes. She seemed powerful but never graceful on the ice. I certainly hope that it was not racism that kept her from winning!

Cant compare Chan of 21 to Plushenko of 29 years old, and Chan certainly skates with super edges and has the difficult sequences that Plushenko never had etc, and he has the quality of jumps (minus 3axel maybe) that Yags and Plush had in their peak time and also has even more of their ultra speed back then, and he also skates sometimes with the aura of the champion which is my cup of tea. But Plushenko and Yagudin skated under 6.0 when in Chan's age so I dont know what else to compare, one thing is that they were projecting different to audience so I dont see many similarities there. To each their own about that though.

I do not think that there is anything wrong with milking the system. Evan did it, Plushenko did it. Heck even Michelle tried to do it towards the end or at least tried to adapt to it. But it is almost insulting when someone like Chan beats someone like Lambiel or Takahashi in program components such as interpretation, performance/execution and even choreography.

Then again, figure skating is a subjective sport and I am not expert. So there you are.

drivingmissdaisy said:

I always find these "milking the system" a bit humorous, and usually it is used just to demean certain skaters. When Irina was Bielmanning everything the US commentators accused her of milking the system, yet no one accused Kwan of milking the system when she did 7 triple programs. Isn't the point of competing to win these competitions with whatever skill set you have? In fact, if you aren't milking the system I think you need to fire your coach.

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Poodlepal said:

ISince Middle Easterners are considered Caucasian, and he's not that much darker than the Latino Rudy Galindo, the Italian Brian Boitano or the Greek Evan Lysacek, I would guess that the reason has to do with something else.

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Lysacek definetely is not a Greek name or do you mean that his mother is a Greek, perhaps?

drivingmissdaisy said:

I always find these "milking the system" a bit humorous, and usually it is used just to demean certain skaters. When Irina was Bielmanning everything the US commentators accused her of milking the system, yet no one accused Kwan of milking the system when she did 7 triple programs. Isn't the point of competing to win these competitions with whatever skill set you have? In fact, if you aren't milking the system I think you need to fire your coach.

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I would say rather that Patrick has mastered the current scoring system, as Michelle mastered the previous one. :yes:

Even under 6.0, it took a complete package to "consolidate the unanimous favor of international judges", which was why we had repeat champions like Yagudin, Browning, etc. while Guo Zhengxin and Chenjiang Li got nowhere with their amazing quads.

Lol, yes. I am actually glad they changed the system. I do not always agree with the scores but it seems a little bit more well... rational. I also like that it is flexible and will allow for new jumps and moves on the ice to be appropriately awarded.

Mathman said:

I would say rather that Patrick has mastered the current scoring system, as Michelle mastered the previous one. :yes:

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Jaana said:

Lysacek definetely is not a Greek name or do you mean that his mother is a Greek, perhaps?

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I think his fathers side of the family was Czech and his mother's Italian ("Santoro").

Edited to add This does not stop the Greek-American community from claiming him, on the basis of his adherence to the Greek Orthodox Church.

http://usa.greekreporter.com/2010/0...an-lysacek-wins-gold-medal-in-figure-skating/

http://usa.greekreporter.com/2010/03/04/interview-with-evan-lysacek/

sweetskates1 said:

Yes, Patrick's choreography is complex but he is not mesmerizing. At least, I do not find him mesmerizing.. again that is just my opinion.

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Not mesmerizing to me, either. But then it's hard to be mesmerized by a skater who can't skate two clean programs on international ice, and mars his presentation with falls. He's an amazing technician but not inspiring (to me,at least).

Hi SkateFiguring,

I did not say there was a similarity in the way Plushenko and Chan skate. I believe that they both use jumps and the number of jumps to their advantage. In addition, Plushenko was one of the first or at least the best skater of his era to milk the system. Patrick and his team look for ways to increase the value of his elements in every way possible.

MRoz is um.. how can I put this... lacking in a lot of ways. His jumps are not consistent, the technical difficulty is not there, he is not artistic, and he is not mentally tough.
Bradley was really only a collegiate athlete with a great personality and amazing jumping ability. He did not have the experience, he did not dedicate the hours and he did not participate in many of the international events.

To say that the judges are not enamored with Chan would be to ignore the obvious-- gigantic scores in the more subjective PCS portions.

No, I absolutely can not speak for others but I can speak for myself. Chan elicits nothing from me, nothing at all. Again, it is my opinion. I apologize if it was expressed as undeniable fact.

As far as I am concerned, all of my favorites should go ahead and beat Chan and Plushenko at milking the system. There should be no shame in it.

Skating is not easy, quads are not easy, difficult transitions are not easy, glorious spins are not easy, interesting footwork is not easy... earning the respect of the judges and the admiration of fans is not easy. No one is saying that Patrick is a terrible jumper with easy transitions that my three year old niece could perform at the local rink. Would he be earning the scores he is without having become a jumping machine? Is it awful that he is a jumping machine? No. Are there more talented, more complete (minus the jumps), and more artistic skaters out there? My opinion is that yes, there surely are.

I just wish that skaters that move me could some how add the technical difficulty necessary to win gold.

SkateFiguring said:

I am prompted to debate the following statements just for the illogic and the prejudicial unilateral declarations.

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I just think that sending 1, 2, and 3 to worlds is not always best. Great skaters have bad days, average skaters have great ones. Should we send an average skater to worlds because he had one great day when we know we can secure 3 spots by sending a great skater that just so happened to have a rough skate at Nationals? I am so happy I am not on that committee.

Mathman said:

I think that pinpoints the problem. Is X, Y, and Z for skater A better than P,Q, and R for skater B? Whose opinion in this matter is the deciding one? Should we favor one skater because we think he has untapped potential that he hasn't shown yet? Shall we reward another because of what he did for us in the past?

Why not hold a national tournament? Winners go on, losers go home. The figure skating powers that be just do not think like sports people do.

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Mathman said:

I think his fathers side of the family was Czech and his mother's Italian ("Santoro").

Edited to add This does not stop the Greek-American community from claiming him, on the basis of his adherence to the Greek Orthodox Church.

http://usa.greekreporter.com/2010/0...an-lysacek-wins-gold-medal-in-figure-skating/

http://usa.greekreporter.com/2010/03/04/interview-with-evan-lysacek/

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Hey , we won an Olympic Gold in figure skating! Yey! :yay:...

To say that the judges are not enamored with Chan would be to ignore the obvious-- gigantic scores in the more subjective PCS portions.

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Maybe they are mesmerized by his artistry?

I agree. I prefer a Takahashi program with two falls to a Chan program with 1 fall. Lol. I am simple fan with no specific understanding of the techniques and I love artists on the ice.

chuckm said:

Not mesmerizing to me, either. But then it's hard to be mesmerized by a skater who can't skate two clean programs on international ice, and mars his presentation with falls. He's an amazing technician but not inspiring (to me,at least).

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Lol, maybe. It is subjective after all. Do you consider his artistry comparable to say Yagudin's or Lambiel's?

SkateFiguring said:

Maybe they are mesmerized by his artistry?

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sweetskates1 said:

Wow, what a flashback! I remember Surya's backflip and her colorful costumes. She seemed powerful but never graceful on the ice. I certainly hope that it was not racism that kept her from winning!

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I know some suggest it was, but ultimately? Her skating was subpar. Yeah she could jump and that was impressive but really? that's all she had.

sweetskates1 said:

Lol, maybe. It is subjective after all. Do you consider his artistry comparable to say Yagudin's or Lambiel's?

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I prefer to enjoy them all rather than comparing them. How do you compare Lambiel, Browning, and Takahashi, from program to program, for example, although Takahashi's Amelie is very Lambialesque, as choregraphed by Lambiel. It also takes time to mature and develop styles and versatility. Browning developed his greatly and mostly after his amateur competitive career.

In competitions under COP system, judges have bullet points to go by. We have to remember competition programs are very different form show programs. The artistry has to be expressed under the constraints and while performing the most difficult elements and skating. The difficulty level also raises the scores. Artistry via full body expression while skating with exquisite skills are valued more than artistry expressed via facial expressions and moves while standing still or during slow and labored skating.

I see, thanks Tonichelle.

Tonichelle said:

I know some suggest it was, but ultimately? Her skating was subpar. Yeah she could jump and that was impressive but really? that's all she had.

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Surya Bonaly had powerful jumps, but skated on flat blades with zero use of edging. She was strictly a jumper and was sorely lacking in artistry.