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Thread: Patrick Chan Interview with Maclean's

  1. #46
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    I think it interesting to ask people why they see Chan as a possible greatest ever contender for men's singles. What does he have over Daisuke, to compare him to someone still competing? Really one thing. He is faster. People love speed. Yuna flew into and out of a triple triple and usually had correct edges and the jumps were WELL ROTATED USUSALLY. Such speed, they said. So much better than poor Mao, who is slow and only did 3 triple axels. Lousy programs, yuna is so much faster and that means better is what I hear people who see these skaters live say. Should speed (Carolina Kostner) be the winner even in FS?

    It is interesting that people who see the speed of Chan over Takahashi in the rink are blown away, even if Dai skates a beautiful program without falls, full of beautiful edges, artistry, elegance, mature nuances. I think of skaters like John Curry rolling in their graves when the 'greatest ever in a one time World Champion as yet, who flies into the boards with a quad/triple then falls. Such control, such artistry. Come on. He is just beginning, and he will not stay around to be a poor artist once the competition days are gone. So we won't see Chan the artist. IMO he is not an artist at all yet. Even when you compare him to just Canadian men, he has not just Kurt to gaze at from far away, but Toller Cranston, a genius on the ice. It's always fun to say who's the best you've seen, but in skating, it all comes down to artistry or athleticism and some judge exclusively by hardware earned. Why does everyone act like the greatest skaters are the OGM holders? Often true but not always. It is opinion. WHo talks about Urmanov? No one. Was he "great?" He had a OGM. Lots of people diss Evan. Hey he beat everyone including the legendary Plushy. Does that qualify for greatest ever?

    There is no way to ever say 'the best skater who ever lived." I like the MK moniker she or her team made up. "The most decorated US skater ever." Well, she competed a very long time and was beloved by many fans, many judges. She won a lot of titles, and it must have been very hard to skate against her at Nationals, which many said every year was hers to lose. Talk about intimidation. Poor Sasha. It is fun to do such threads, but the fact that Browning usually mentions Canadian skaters as "the best he's seen" just shows his nationalism and his affinity for his Canadian friends in skating. If Kurt were being honest, he'd probabaly tell us, blade to ice, he himself is the best single skater to date. I think Kurt could have been a top ice dancer, and he could have done well in pairs, but he was too good for that.

    One thing is for sure, he was skating after the whack and he has had the opportunity to try it all from amateur to pro. I think he's not just been talented, he's been super lucky. Patrick will never have the longeveity of Kurt, Orser, Boitano, Plushenko. We even forget Kulik as he turned pro quickly. We forget Yagudin, perhaps the better skater when we think of all that Plushenko has done, which seems impossible, and he still may surprise us more.

    Will Chan create like Dick Button and win two Olympic gold medals? NO. So you can really only seriously debate people from same era, or compare jumpers, or blade to ice skills or speed etc. Chan is a very complete skater and I hope to see more skating like at Nationals He does not sound like he will compete past Sochi, and if there is no money in show skating, he will move on to another sport or field of endeavour. It's funny that skating has so much hyperbole an it is usually opinion, unless you have the hardware to back it up. Even then, it is impossible to give the greatest ever title unlss you are talking baseball etc where it is all about numbers. And no subjective numbers, either.
    Last edited by skateluvr; 02-11-2012 at 07:40 PM.

  2. #47
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    I think it interesting to ask people why they see Chan as a possible greatest ever contender for men's singles. What does he have over Daisuke, to compare him to someone still competing? Really one thing. He is faster. People love speed.
    I think, though, that it is not just his speed across the ice but also the quickness of his feet

    I like the MK moniker she or her team made up. "The most decorated US skater ever."
    I think the USFSA made that up. Yeah, that was clever. Can't really argue with it, if it means the total tonnage of all the medals she ever won hung around her neck at once.

    If Kurt were being honest, he'd probabaly tell us, blade to ice, he himself is the best single skater to date. I think Kurt could have been a top ice dancer, and he could have done well in pairs, but he was too good for that.
    Just to keep things in perspective:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Izl1CA1uA (Nyah )

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXtd7...eature=related (Singin' in the Rain )

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVnAVkMI_A4 (Brick House )

  3. #48
    Custom Title spikydurian's Avatar
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    OMG .. the direction of thread is moving towards the definition of 'great'. I just couldn't resist giving my two cents worth of opinion.
    Dictionary.com define 'greatness' as "a person who has achieved importance or distinction in a field". Off my head the non-living names... Abraham Lincoln in politics, Charles Dickens in literature, Albert Einstein in physics. To achieve that 'distinction' one should reach the level where it will be a yardstick for others to emulate/follow. In short, stand out among the pack. I think Kurt will also be noted as a yardstick as a 'performer', Plushy a jumper and perhaps in a few years' time, Patrick in footwork.
    That's my two cents worth
    Back to you all....

  4. #49
    Custom Title spikydurian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I NYAH! Brick House is fun. As for Plushy's Sex Bomb with two million viewers, it's hilarious fun.

  5. #50
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    I don't think it's just speed with Patrick but how he gets the speed, and then maintains it, all while incorporating difficult turns/steps, hops and movements, perfectly timed to the music. I'm sure if skaters were fitted with something equivalent to a pedometer, Patrick would have skated the furthest in terms of length than any other skater on the ice.

    While I prefer Takahashi in terms of his music selection, programmes, and up close nuances of his programmes, I'm guessing that watching live, Patrick would be more impressive than Takahashi. Unless I fork out the cost of going to worlds, I guess i'll never know until i get the chance to them both live!

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I don't think it's just speed with Patrick but how he gets the speed, and then maintains it, all while incorporating difficult turns/steps, hops and movements, perfectly timed to the music. I'm sure if skaters were fitted with something equivalent to a pedometer, Patrick would have skated the furthest in terms of length than any other skater on the ice.

    While I prefer Takahashi in terms of his music selection, programmes, and up close nuances of his programmes, I'm guessing that watching live, Patrick would be more impressive than Takahashi. Unless I fork out the cost of going to worlds, I guess i'll never know until i get the chance to them both live!
    I've seen them both live and I agree with your assessment.

    Daisuke is a beautiful skater and I love the nuances of his programs. He seems to "feel" his choreography more than Patrick (at this point in Patrick's development, anyway).

    Patrick, though, has amazing command of the ice, and this really comes across when watching live in the arena. His blade control allows him to create speed out of nowhere, and to maintain that speed (seemingly) without effort throughout difficult choreography. Watching him live, I get the sense that he has total confidence in his blades - that they can do anything he wants them to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    Just to keep things in perspective:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXtd7...eature=related (Singin' in the Rain )
    Toller Cranston's comment on Kurt's "Singin in the Rain" performance was something along the lines of "all the other male skaters might as well go home right now".

    Toller has incredible respect for Kurt (and Toller doesn't hesitate to criticize things he doesn't like, bless him, lol).

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Right now Chan has no charisma or performance ability on the ice. Maybe he will have some by Sochi and deliver a great program that is also audience friendly. I admire his technical ambition and it's great for HIM that he is a does what's necessary for high PCS slave but as of yet has nothing memorable in the program department.
    I'm not sure what you mean by audience friendly? Chan has had great programs. I don't remember names, but his 2009 LP, 2009/10 SP, POTO, Take Five and Aranjuez are all great programs.
    Last edited by jettasian; 02-10-2012 at 10:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    I think it interesting to ask people why they see Chan as a possible greatest ever contender for men's singles. What does he have over Daisuke, to compare him to someone still competing? Really one thing. He is faster. People love speed.
    If speed is the only thing that you see from him, than maybe that's why you don't see other great stuff he has.

    It is interesting that people who see the speed of Chan over Takahashi in the rink are blown away, even if Dai skates a beautiful program without falls, full of beautiful edges, artistry, elegance, mature nuances.
    Chan has all these qualities that Dai has, with intricate footworks and transitions and jumps and easiness on the ice.

    I think of skaters like John Curry rolling in their graves when the 'greatest ever in a one time World Champion as yet, who flies into the boards with a quad/triple then falls.
    If you think skaters like JC would roll in their graves with such fall, I can't imagine what'd happen with pop up jumps or simply fall from a jump. I'd take hitting on board due to super speed jump as an honor. And not becuase Chan didn't have control of his speed, he simply miscalculated the gap.

    He is just beginning, and he will not stay around to be a poor artist once the competition days are gone. So we won't see Chan the artist. IMO he is not an artist at all yet.
    Figure skating has always been a debate whether it's a sport or art. To me, when they are in competition, it is a sport. When they are doing shows, such as Nutcracker or Stars on Ice, it's art. Whether Chan is an artist or not, it belongs to shows and galas. As for competitions, he's an athlete. That's what they are called, "athlete" in a competition, "athlete' in the Olympic games. Not "artist" in the Olympic games. Artists do opening and closing ceremonies. Athletes compete for a medal.

    If Kurt were being honest, he'd probabaly tell us, blade to ive, he himself is the best single skater to date.
    Or maybe he was being honest of what he said.

    I think he's not just been talented, he's been super lucky. Patrick will never have the longeveity of Kurt, Orser, Boitano, Plushenko.
    Never? Isn't that too soon to say that, like you said that it's too soon to say he's the "greatest"? The names you mentioned were all from the "golden" era. Most people remember them. Skating's not as popular now. Most skaters move on after competition, unlike in the past when there were more shows and pro competitions etc.
    Last edited by jettasian; 02-10-2012 at 10:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    Figure skating has always been a debate whether it's a sport or art. To me, when they are in competition, it is a sport. When they are doing shows, such as Nutcracker or Stars on Ice, it's art. Whether Chan is an artist or not, it belongs to shows and galas. As for competitions, he's an athlete. That's what they are called, "athlete" in a competition, "athlete' in the Olympic games. Not "artist" in the Olympic games. Artists do opening and closing ceremonies. Athletes compete for a medal.
    Right on!!!

  11. #56
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    Figure skating has always been a debate whether it's a sport or art. To me, when they are in competition, it is a sport. When they are doing shows, such as Nutcracker or Stars on Ice, it's art. Whether Chan is an artist or not, it belongs to shows and galas. As for competitions, he's an athlete. That's what they are called, "athlete" in a competition, "athlete' in the Olympic games. Not "artist" in the Olympic games. Artists do opening and closing ceremonies. Athletes compete for a medal.
    This dichotomy does not reflect the judging criteria. If competitions were only about athleticism, the skaters would not be marked for things like emotional involvement, style and individuality/personality, projection/connection to audience, refined lines of body/limbs, comprehension of the music, unity with the music, etc. Just because the word artistry is not used, it doesn't mean the concept has been eliminated. They've just tried to specify it.

    On another note: last night I noticed what for me is one of Patrick's few weaknesses and I don't remember seeing comments about it before (could be wrong about that though). He doesn't use his head much and looks a bit stiff-necked. While I hate a bad head-roll, the use of the head and neck can do a lot to convey emotional involvement. This might be something for him to focus on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    This dichotomy does not reflect the judging criteria. If competitions were only about athleticism, the skaters would not be marked for things like emotional involvement, style and individuality/personality, projection/connection to audience, refined lines of body/limbs, comprehension of the music, unity with the music, etc. Just because the word artistry is not used, it doesn't mean the concept has been eliminated. They've just tried to specify it.
    Artistry directly accounts for 20 -30% of the total scores.

    On another note: last night I noticed what for me is one of Patrick's few weaknesses and I don't remember seeing comments about it before (could be wrong about that though). He doesn't use his head much and looks a bit stiff-necked. While I hate a bad head-roll, the use of the head and neck can do a lot to convey emotional involvement. This might be something for him to focus on.
    I noticed and brought it up before that Patrick did not use his head much in a literal sense, well actually his neck, like Dai and Lambiel did. It was very obvious in Amelie choreographed by Lambiel so Dai probably learned to emphasize that even more from the master.

  13. #58
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    ^ If artistry counts for 20-30% of the total score then skating is definitely not just athleticism.

    I'm glad we agree about Patrick's head and neck. I'm sure he can do something about that if he wants to. He's addressed pretty much everything else so he might as well address the neck. Who knows, that last detail might be all he needs to be a great artist. It doesn't have to be extreme, like Dai. A subtle use can have big impact. Depends on the program.

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    The eyes and hands when well used can make a subtle yet powerful difference in a performance. Lu Chen was exquisite with both. Well, often the eyes and head work in conjunction, as one looks towards the direction of the turn of the head. I can imagine it's very difficult to focus on such details while executing very demanding and athletic undertaking when skating, especially for those such interpretive artistry does not come naturally. But every detail counts at the highest level, either for scoring or meeting self imposed perfectionism. Patrick does try to pay attention to and improve every aspect of his skating, technically and artistically, so I believe he will keep raising his own standard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    This dichotomy does not reflect the judging criteria. If competitions were only about athleticism, the skaters would not be marked for things like emotional involvement, style and individuality/personality, projection/connection to audience, refined lines of body/limbs, comprehension of the music, unity with the music, etc. Just because the word artistry is not used, it doesn't mean the concept has been eliminated. They've just tried to specify it.
    I don't think Jettasian said anything wrong in the quote. It is a sport, a unique sport. It is defined as sport, not as art. As an athlete, Chan has sufficient artistry to take him to the top and dominate this sport. A great athlete can accomplish that while the finest artist cannot.

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