MEN - Short Program

Spun Silver · Feb 10, 2012

I honestly don't know what you are talking about but I really doubt it's due to the commentators that people aren't coming to skating in the US.

And they do go to Nats.

Going to competitions is enormously expensive, you know. It's not just the tickets. I am not poor, but between airfare, event tickets, hotel, meals, time, and pet or child care, you have to be pretty well-off and have a lot of leisure to go to these things. I think the recession has been worse in the US than Canada too. We did buy tix for the only international event in the last few years that was close enough for us to attend. (They don't seem to like the E. Coast for some reason.) Unfortunately hubby got sick and we couldn't use them. It's so much easier to watch on TV or IN.

ciocio · Feb 10, 2012

Chan is a gold medal contender in Sochi or any other competition until Sochi. Some of the comments posted here are very unfair!!!!:disapp:

By the way, is Plushy competing at 4CC, I thought he is preparing for the surgery!!!!????

skatinginbc · Feb 10, 2012

let`s talk said:
They even refuse to see the obvious: https://p.twimg.com/AlShg04CMAAah_x.jpg

You are bad but funny.

seniorita · Feb 10, 2012

ciocio said:
By the way, is Plushy competing at 4CC

No. Was Chan competing at Euros?

Bluebonnet · Feb 10, 2012

Spun Silver said:
It's so much easier to watch on TV or IN.

Sure! Skating events are expensive, always have been. It's easier to watch on TV or IN, with commentators constantly tell you that the judges were wrong and how they should have done. As if they are so much more smarter and so much more fair than the judges. Isn't that obvious what would happen next? Why do people even complain about the shrinking market in US?! They actively made it more and more unpopular!:sheesh:

ManyCairns · Feb 10, 2012

seniorita said:
But I wish there is a component that shows that the skater does actually enjoy skating instead of looking like to faint for anxiety (hello Abott). Maybe this is what I liked in Daisuke.

You are probably being at least partly humorous here but I think this is an excellent point. Perhaps at least a bullet point under PE? Though I wouldn't want it to result in skaters plastering frozen smiles on their faces throughout their programs to "prove" their "enjoyment.". Still I like the notion of making it look like fun! Or at least not terrifying. (agree re Abbott)

emma · Feb 10, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
1. All the judges gave Chan a -3 for that quad. Clearly, they thought it was a fall. Yes, I'm aware that you can get -3 without a fall, but to get straight -3s without a fall is unheard of. Hell, Chan doesn't always get straight -3s even when he does fall. I think he deserved the -1 fall deduction. I've seen lighter slips nailed, and to not nail Chan definitely will add fuel to the fire for the ABC brigade.

2. I don't think he was that tight, seniorita, but I definitely think he was lesser than he's been with the rest of the elements. Less playful during the footwork, I felt.

3. IMO, Dai's PCS > Chan's PCS at this competition. Not hugely, necessarily - the technical side of PCS tends to favour Chan and Chan's TES should be ahead of Dai's so Chan should be ahead anyway - but I felt that Dai ticked the PCS boxes better than Chan here.

Just watched and thanks for the links and all the commentary. I have to agree with IP here....I felt that was a fall and should have had -1; but, I also thought Chan still one on tech (and I think that Dai's spins traveled a bit compared to chan in addition to the tightness on the combo jump and the 'bigger' fall on the 4). I also thought that Dai could have had some higher pcs....and that Chan's power/energy or spark was lacking somewhat. So, I think final SP scores for these two should be closer than they are, although they are not currently 'light years' away from each other either. It is a pleasure to watch these two go head to head, and can't wait for LPs and of course, worlds (with Abbott too!).

ETA skatefiguring - i agree that Dai fell and fell on his butt...Chan's slip was not the same; however, it looked to me as if more weight was on his hands in that forward position than on the blades, which is why I think it was technically or fairly a fall. However, once again he amazes me as it is clear he was pulling in his core strength to stay as much on the blades as possible and popped back to vertical very fast; and then skated clean after that. Impressive. SS I would give to Chan on this, but I think I would have given PE and IN to Dai. AGain, I really feel that the scores are not far off - I just think there should have been -1 on Chan's quad and maybe one point wiggle room to give Dai a little more of PCS

ETA 2 - was that Peter C commentating? Gotta, say, it may look a lot different live, but just rewatching these two, I don't really know what he is seeing (would love to give him the benefit of the doubt; but sounds like what someone else said before, he's judging via 6.0 eyes, and this does not help the viewers understand anything). Still can't wait for the LPs!!

Bluebonnet · Feb 10, 2012

seniorita said:
But I wish there is a component that shows that the skater does actually enjoy skating instead of looking like to faint for anxiety (hello Abott). Maybe this is what I liked in Daisuke.

rallycairn said:
You are probably being at least partly humorous here but I think this is an excellent point. Perhaps at least a bullet point under PE? Though I wouldn't want it to result in skaters plastering frozen smiles on their faces throughout their programs to "prove" their "enjoyment.". Still I like the notion of making it look like fun! Or at least not terrifying. (agree re Abbott)

Oh, that's unfair to Abbott! He doesn't want to look scared or terrifying. He wants to show his true enjoyment in skating which he really truly does. I do not agree to add such bullet point anywhere. It cannot cover all kinds of music and emotions. It can only represent for certain themes. "Look like fun" has such narrow range in terms of music choosing and programing.

mystichaze · Feb 10, 2012

Thanks to all those who posted in this thread about the competition, sounds like it was interesting to say the least. I hope that Ross will be able to skate another clean LP and looking forward to see how Dai and Patrick do as well.

ETA- Love, love, love the ignore function on this board!

Bluebonnet · Feb 10, 2012

let`s talk said:
Seems like judges went into the spiral of overscoring Chan and now they don't know how to get out. They keep doing this madness while the number of empty seats in the audience is getting bigger. Will that old Russian tyrannosaurus, who promised to compete fully next season, break the spell that judges put on themselves? Looking at the generous marks they gave him in Euros, they do hope he will! Jesus, I almost started pitying judges .

I'd think Plushenko would beat Takahashi before he beats Chan, if he could beat Chan, since Plushenko could rake up more TES than Takahashi.

And Plushenko's TR, PE, and IN are much better than before.

Astonishingly find out that Takahashi was in sixth in TES and Chan was in second! :eek:

colleen o'neill · Feb 10, 2012

Yep. Shoulda been a fall.

I love both Patrick and Dai's skating , think Dai is the greater artist in terms of musical expression, and am glad to see Patrick trying to develop this side of his performance. Neither was perfect this time out .

I've barely seen anything..only what's been posted here , but can we hear it for the great job done by the other two Japanese skaters , Mura and Machida ? Lots to like there, and they both seem to be developing in a very balanced way , technically and artistically. Kudos , guys !

dorispulaski · Feb 10, 2012

Indeed, the ignore function is very useful, if there are posters whom you think never contribute anything interesting to the conversation. Unfortunately, mods are not allowed to use it :laugh:

If anyone does not know how to use Ignore, and wants instructions on how to use it, they are at this location:

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?35354-How-to-Ignore-Other-Posters

And yes, I loved both Mura's and Machida's and Miner's SP's, and loved to see how happy each was with his performance. May all the Three M's have a great LP!

lavender · Feb 10, 2012

I was cracking up at Peter Caruthers commentary on Dai and Chan. I kind of like that he was voicing his honest feelings. He almost sounded fed up and decided he was going to say what he truly felt.

I love Dai and I like Chan but I don't know how I would put the placements. However I do think Dai should have the best pcs scores base on what took place in this competition.

evangeline · Feb 10, 2012

wallylutz said:
It is not incorrect to call the 2nd mark, "Presentation score". That said, Peter could have given a more elaborate commentary to support his position and educate his audience at the same time, which he failed to do and instead, found himself speechless because he got it so wrong at the end.

Maybe Peter was speechless with shock/surprise instead? Having finally watched the SPs myself, I don't think it's a far-out opinion at all that maybe, just maybe, Daisuke should have received higher PCS. Peter's reaction wasn't so very different from the reactions of the British Eurosport guys or Michael Weiss and co. at the GPF LP vis-a-vis Daisuke's and Patrick's PCS.

Violet Bliss · Feb 10, 2012

Youtube:

Adam Rippon 4CC2012 SP

Tatsuki Machida 4CC2012 SP

Be fast. Daisuke's already removed. But this is likely OK

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8076902/daisuke_takahashi_3rd_to_start_four_continents_from_universal/

jettasian · Feb 10, 2012

SkateFiguring said:
The difference in total scores between Dai and Patrick is about 4 points, which can be accounted for from their quads. They are almost even on the PCS, with 0.27 advantage to Patrick, and the rest of the executed elements sort of even themselves out with small difference of less than a point for each. Both their quads received -3 GOE from all judges but Dai suffered a 3 point BV loss due to the UR, plus 1 point deduction for the fall. There you have the 4 points which showed up in the Total.

It's almost incredible, though I shouldn't be surprised, that the focus of arguments is on Chan's fall, even when there wasn't one while Dai had a a butt on the ice fall. When Chan falls, his PCS should severely reflect poor skating skills and serious interruption of the performance. When Dai falls, accolades pour in declaring the skate the the most exciting and heart appealing performance deserving the highest PCS possible. And he does receive high PCS at all his competitions, regardless of how many times he falls. At GPF, there was an outraged focus on one of the 162 marks given Daisuke deemed unfair and corrupt. Now nobody has noted a very generous judge who also awarded him the out of corridor +3 GOE on his jump combo. Nothing against Dai, but the fans' double standard is too ridiculously blatant and ingrained.

While someone claimed favoritism from the network for Chan and against Rippon, I saw clueless camera work and biased commentator misleading skating fans. Much of Chan's one foot footwork, a highlight and showcase of his skating skills, was not shown, with not a word of mention from the commentator who went on and on about excitement being the determining factor for scoring and winning after both Chan's and Takahashi's performances. There appeared a total lack of understanding of the scoring system currently in place. This is doing the fans and the sport no favor. In contrast, Canadian commentators such as Kurt Browning are often very educational, helping fans understand and enjoy figure skating and competitions.

That's why I think Patrick and Dai's gap should be wider. Either Patrick's score was low, or Dai's score was inflated. TES score was fine as you mentioned, each got -3GOE and Dai got another penalty for UR and fall. However, in terms of PCS, Patrick's transition, skating skill and choreo should be alot higher than Dai. Dai did NOT get penalized much in the PCS for a flaw skate. The difference was less than a point is ridiculous.

emma · Feb 10, 2012

thanks for the link to Machida!! He looked like he was having a blast! Good for him. I really love his costume!

Skatefiguring....you are right about camera work; i totally forgot about Chan's one foot footwork - it was only after viewing and thinking about it for a while that I realized 'something was missing'....then I read your comment as was like, oh right, that whole length of the rink was done on one foot but you couldn't tell from the camera work.

jettasian · Feb 10, 2012

Spun Silver said:
It's even more obvious when you watch the vid. I don't know how to freeze-frame or I would have linked it.
From the US rulebook -

But as they immediately add:

First time I saw the rulebook....um, I see many pairs side by side jumps have the same issue, hands touch down...I don't record they consider that as a fall either.

Blades of Passion · Feb 10, 2012

The tech callers again show their ineptitude.

Not just on failing to give the fall deduction either. They gave Patrick Chan's change-of-foot camel spin a Level 4 even though it should have only been Level 3. It's the exact same spin he has been doing all season long and there were only 3 features in it, not 4. ***?!?

I most definitely feel they were also wrong in calling Takahashi's Quad as underrotated. Look at the point he leaves the ice. He's getting air rotations immediately, with less pre-rotation than normal. Besides that, he really lands right at the 1/4 turn mark anyway, in terms of if he had left the ice facing completely towards the boards (which he didn't, he left the ice before that and got more rotation).

You take away 1.4 points from Chan for the fall and undeserved extra level bonus he got on the spin, and add 3.1 points to Takahashi for the underrotation hit he shouldn't have received, then the scores are accurate (Chan would then be leading by only .86 points). Chan's 3Lutz-3Toe was better than Takahashi's 3Lutz-3Toe (and the judges actually gave Takahashi too much credit on that element with the GOE marks), so with that you can say Chan deserved a small lead in the SP.

demarinis5 · Feb 10, 2012

jettasian said:
Eh, he UR 2 jumps, falls on his butt....and it's only about 5 point difference?

I actually watched the competition on UN in real time. I saw both skaters "fall". So there is no need to keep repeating yourself.

It is clear to me how the judges scored Dai in comparison to Patrick in this competition, 5 points. The score has been entered
and it is a lock.

MEN - Short Program

Spun Silver

ciocio

skatinginbc

seniorita

Bluebonnet

ManyCairns

emma

Bluebonnet

mystichaze

Bluebonnet

colleen o'neill

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

lavender

evangeline

Violet Bliss

jettasian

Match Penalty

emma

jettasian

Match Penalty

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

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