LADIES LONG PROGRAM Thread | Page 35 | Golden Skate

LADIES LONG PROGRAM Thread

babayaga

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 27, 2010
I must again state how horrible the tech panel(s) have been at this event. No edge call on the Lutz and no underrotation call on the toeloop? Those were obvious (the same with Caroline Zhang's Lutz).

Mao is extremely lucky that a stricter caller wasn't at this event because both of her Triple Flips could have gotten a <. I would probably give the benefit of the doubt, but they were both absolutely at least 1/4 turn short. Ditto for her Triple Loop (with which she was gifted by the judges to not receive -GOE for that landing).

This new jump technique is not working for Mao. She is needlessly focusing too hard on the Flip entry when it never received edge calls and rarely received < anyway. As a result of trying to take the entry on a cleaner edge, she is losing height and just making it MORE prone to < calls. That problem seems to have carried over to her Loop, where she is focusing too much on the takeoff rather than just exploding off the ice. In general she also seems to be waiting too long to start rotating.

I'm also highly confused by the changes that have been made to her spins. She is not doing her solo sit spin with the difficult flying entry, dropping the base value by .6, and she changed her final FCCoSp4 to a FCoSp4, which is worth .5 less. I realize she may not be able to do a FCCopSp4 anymore because of the changes to the new rules, although I actually don't think that's true with all of the different variations she is capable of, but there's no reason why she should be throwing those points away on the sit spin. I mean, she's clearly removing the flying entry from the sit spin so that it can be used as a level feature for the FCoSp4, but she could just do a regular CoSp4 with backward entry instead of a flying entry to achieve the level; they're worth the same base value.

And I'm STILL infuriated by the overall choreographic changes that were made to this program towards the end of last season.

This is the worst Mao has ever been at the peak of a season. Not at all what I expected.

But Mao just lost her mother a month ago. This could not not have affected her training and mindset. I think people's expectations should be a little lower at this time, no?
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
High altitude affects different people differently so it's hard to project the results here to normal events. (There is some discussion of this in the Men's LP thread.)

Obviously Ashley and Caroline demonstrated what they are capable of. But some simply couldn't perform anywhere close to their usual standard.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
I haven't been able to watch but .... Yey for Ashley and Caroline!!!!!!!! To be honest, it would have been upsetting if at least one of the Americans hadn't medaled at this event, given that their only real competition was Mao and Murakami, who hasn't been up to her highest standards this season ... but to have Ashley win and Caroline win the bronze! What a treat. After so many bad seasons I wouldn't have predicted that Caroline would have done so well this season and I am so happy for her. I am just thrilled that her hard work and perserverence was worth it. And Ashley! Finally national champion and now 4CC champion to boot. I think Ashely will do well at worlds. I know she will be nervous but on the other hand, she's not REALLY a top favorite for medals. She'll go in as another medal possibility but not a favorite. I think there will be more pressure on Mao and Carolina and even Alissa. People won't know what to expect of Ashely, given that it's her first worlds since 2008 and that could be to her advantage. I hope so anyway. I hope she doesn't worry TOO much about the getting the third spot back and remembers to enjoy herself at worlds and just the fact that she made the team and is there as the American champion. She seem to really like her Swan program, too, so that is another good thing.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I ve got a naive question but since I dont know the answer, why did they hold an event in a place where it might cause problems for the majority of athletes, cause all I ve been reading the last week is altitude affecting their health or at least performances, and they all look exhausted the least, wasnt there any other arena in the world closer to sea level to hold 4CC ? I mean it is normal they wont always compete in the same circumstances they are mostly trained but from all competitions this is the first time I m reading so much worrying choice of a place.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
:confused: Not sure that I got the reference to the power of purse.

As sky-fly20 says, it was a reference to the fact that Japan is the only country in the world right now that generates any revenue for the ISU.

This was in response to the post by NotAnybody'sMother that the Japanese Federation was not in a position to apply any political clout to affect the outcome of this contest. And perhaps this played a role in placing the U.S. skater, Wagner, ahead of Asada.

My point was that politics is only politics, but money is money. Overall, the ISU is not going to stack the deck against Japanese skaters just because some other federation has political pull.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I ve got a naive question but since I dont know the answer, why did they hold an event in a place where it might cause problems for the majority of athletes, cause all I ve been reading the last week is altitude affecting their health or at least performances, and they all look exhausted the least, wasnt there any other arena in the world closer to sea level to hold 4CC ? I mean it is normal they wont always compete in the same circumstances they are mostly trained but from all competitions this is the first time I m reading so much worrying choice of a place.

I wondered that too, Seniorita. Is it that mountainous areas like Colorado Springs tend to be winter sports powers? Co. Springs is a very important skating city for the U.S., certainly. At least for the highest-stakes competition of all, the Winter Olympics, when it's held in a mountainous area, a country can maybe send its athletes to a training center a bit earlier to get used to the altitude (I'm thinking of places like Grenoble and Innsbruck), but for a yearly competition like 4CC, the funds are probably harder to come by. I know that Patrick specifically trains in altitude for endurance, as the Kenyan runners do for track and field, but skaters in Japan or other low-lying countries don't have access to facilities that high up.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
They've used the area for skating for years... as I said previously I don't think the number of medical emergencies really warrants a ban on use of the facilities for competition.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I ve got a naive question but since I dont know the answer, why did they hold an event in a place where it might cause problems for the majority of athletes, cause all I ve been reading the last week is altitude affecting their health or at least performances, and they all look exhausted the least, wasnt there any other arena in the world closer to sea level to hold 4CC ? I mean it is normal they wont always compete in the same circumstances they are mostly trained but from all competitions this is the first time I m reading so much worrying choice of a place.

Colorado Springs is where the USFSA headquarters is located, and they are well able to organize an event more quickly and more cheaply than other U.S. cities can.

The USFSA is having a hard time finding anyone willing to host their major events, like Skate America and U.S. Nationals because the local hosting organization is likely to lose money.

For the 2010 U.S. Championships held in Spokane, even though attendance was good the local organizers still had to scramble to get the money together. The state government had pledged to give them $50,000, but were forced to renege on their promise because the State of Washington did not have any money either. (A new state legislature came into power that year and the new legislators weren't figure skating fans. :) )
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Yey, just watched Ashley's SP and FS on Youtube. What great skates for her. Especially the FS, she was clearly in the moment. We've rarely seen Ashley on top but she seems to thrive on it - not one of those skaters who gets flustered by finding herself national champ or 4CC champ but one of the those skaters who embraces it and goes with it. She's not perfect but she's fierce.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Philip Mills has done some very good choreography over the years for a number of skaters that I liked. AFAIR, he did some programs for Navarro & Bommentre and Inoue & Baldwin and a lot of others that I do not remember.

He did an exhibition for Michelle--can't remember which one. I'm sure someone else will.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ Did someone ring for me? :laugh:

"I wish they all could be California, I wish they all could be California, I wish they all could be California girls!" ♫♪

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYEhAnnzCkM

(I'm not sure that Mills choreographed that doubled jump at the end, but oh well.)

He also did Hands and Kissing Me for Michelle.
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
i respect your right to your opinion, but to me, ashley's arm movements are unaesthetic. even if it goes with the music, unaesthetic is unaesthetic.

as for mao's spiral, i agree that she tilts forward a bit too much in her back--i really do not favor legs hiked up to vertical on spirals--that's not what makes them beautiful--but i have always admired a long held spiral with the arms not waving or flapping. i don't understand what you mean when you said she could have 'done something.' what was lacking or objectionable about mao's spiral? was MK's change of edge spiral lacking because she didn't change her arm position while she spiraled for so-darn-long? not to me. MK didn't even need to change the edge to impress me.

Just to clarify, I didn't bring up the spiral sequences to argue about which one was better or more aesthetically appealing. I was bringing them up to refute the point by 100yen that Mao's program was "more detailed" than Ashley's. It's not. The spiral sequence is just one example where Ashley has more details than Mao, certainly not fewer.

Nothing was particularly objectionable about Mao's spiral, and I was never arguing about which was more aesthetically appealing. Nor was I arguing that Mao needs to have arm movements in order to improve her spiral--I just cited this fact to support my argument that Ashley does have a detailed program.

Mao herself, by the way, has had some unique arm movements during her spiral sequence in the past--see her 2009-2010 FS.

if i may rant a bit. i've always disliked that nicole bobek (a true queen of spirals) would move her arms around and often rest her hand on her hip during her spiral. for me, a good spiral can give the image of flying--i don't need the arm motion, i don't need the skater to do much of anything, because if the skater has a nice edge, decent speed, there's more than enough motion to change the scenery (what the audience member sees) as the skater goes round the rink. unless the camera is zooming in the skater's boobs or boots...

Well, that's the thing--Mao has beautiful extension, but she doesn't have great speed in her spiral, and it doesn't cover a lot of ice. Where it was placed previously in her FS had a much better music highlight, now, it's kinda crammed in there and she has to hurry up and finish it and go on to her closing pose, so it's rather shortened.

I was actually thinking of the spiral sequence specifically when writing this :) Mao spiral has such extension (and the look on her face!) that I don't think it needs to be accentuated with jerky arm movements. Of course, this isn't the only part...I just find Liebestraum to have more nuances.

I replied before, but wanted to add on--I mever said that Mao's spiral needed Ashley's arm movements. ;) Also, Mao missed out on some nuances of Liebestraum here--because of the hand down on the lutz, she missed the brief transition she does after it (this used to be an Ina Bauer; at 2011 Nationals it was a brief spread eagle).

No biggie if you love Mao's performance more, and I totally understand if you don't care for Ashley's program--but Ashley does have details, transitions, choreography, you name it. :cool:
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
They've used the area for skating for years... as I said previously I don't think the number of medical emergencies really warrants a ban on use of the facilities for competition.

(A new state legislature came into power that year and the new legislators weren't figure skating fans. :) )

^
Sooo Michele for President?!? :)

Thank you for the reply. Toni I didnt say the arena to be banned! I didnt have in mind medical emergency other than Nan Song but I read in all threads that many skaters were not great situation at the end or couldnt perform well. I havent read similar comments in another competition lately, people seemed to bring this reason a lot.
I didnt also remember any major event there after GPF when Sandu won but ok, I dont follow everything. Oh and I wasnt aware that this is the place of USFSA so...;)
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
As sky-fly20 says, it was a reference to the fact that Japan is the only country in the world right now that generates any revenue for the ISU.

This was in response to the post by NotAnybody'sMother that the Japanese Federation was not in a position to apply any political clout to affect the outcome of this contest. And perhaps this played a role in placing the U.S. skater, Wagner, ahead of Asada.

My point was that politics is only politics, but money is money. Overall, the ISU is not going to stack the deck against Japanese skaters just because some other federation has political pull.
Well, I doubt that generating of any ISU revenue in Japan takes place because people on average are well-off. They could easily spend the power of their purses on something esle. The fact that they spend it on FS means that the popularity of FS in Japan is super high. For now. But everything has its beginning. The lack of political support of their skaters from JFSF side won't go unnoticed. Sooner or later, if it keeps going the same way, the trust and credibility of the sport will be damaged. It didn't take long to have empty seats on FS events in other countries. Right now it doesn't seem possible in the country where skaters are rock stars, and I do hope it will be like that forever. Especially, after Dai finally beated some guy in PE in SP, the thing that should have happened from the start. But it wasn't due to JFSF efforts. More like due to international irritation of unfairness and misjudgement. Yet, we had a mini dejavu in ladies event. While in general Ashley, with the TES base value of the second tens at Russian Nationals, won at 4CC fairly, her sudden PCS over Mao is more like politics than a deserved score I think.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Well, I doubt that generating of any ISU revenue in Japan takes place because people on average are well-off. They could easily spend the power of their purses on something esle. The fact that they spend it on FS means that the popularity of FS in Japan is super high. For now. But everything has its beginning. The lack of political support of their skaters from JFSF side won't go unnoticed. Sooner or later, if it keeps going the same way, the trust and credibility of the sport will be damaged. It didn't take long to have empty seats on FS events in other countries. Right now it doesn't seem possible in the country where skaters are rock stars, and I do hope it will be like that forever. Especially, after Dai finally beated some guy in PE in SP, the thing that should have happened from the start. But it wasn't due to JFSF efforts. More like due to international irritation of unfairness and misjudgement. Yet, we had a mini dejavu in ladies event. While in general Ashley, with the TES base value of the second tens at Russian Nationals, won at 4CC fairly, her sudden PCS over Mao is more like politics than a deserved score I think.

I may be too naive for this sport, but I am not into conspiracy theories and political plots very much. I would like to think that most of the time the judges are honest and do their best to score conscientiously.

That said, I think there is a "home court advantage." The judges, like everyone else, can get caught up in the emotions of the moment. Ashley Wagner gave an excellent and exuberant performance. It was scored 20 points above her previous personal best because it was the skate of a lifetime for her (so far :) ).

The point I was making before is exactly that I am sure that the ISU realizes and understands everything you said in you post about the popularity of skating in Japan. They would be idiots to hold back Japanese skaters for some silly political foolishness. If there sport loses ground in Japan the ISU will be up the creek, and I am pretty sure that Cinquanta and his cronies know that full well.

As for PCSs, I don't really know what they mean any more. The "second mark" used to go to the skater that wowed the audience with his technique and passion as a performing artist; to the skater that could make us laugh, make us cry, make us feel the music; who could touch our hearts and stir our souls. That sort of thing has been pushed aside in the present scoring system. So it is harder for me to say, oh, this skater obviously deserved higher component scores that that one.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
PCS is used to uphold different skaters at different times according to whatever is deemed appropriate to the particular situation. BUT,there still is a corridor on how much someone can be upheld by PCS, and that corridor is determined by the technical score.

HOWEVER,technical score can also be manipulated to a degree according to the technical caller. Sometimes,underrotations and wrong edges will be ignored for all skaters or for specific skater(s) on all the jumps or some of the jumps,at other times,not. If there is a tournament where the tech call is inconsistent,like at 4CC---virtually no flutzes called except for Kanako’s and underrotations also ignored except for Mao’s triple axel---then you know there’s politics at play.

Given that this is how figure skating is judged, what can skaters and coaches do? They just have to train and train and train and make sure that they get rid of all and every single aspect of their skating and technique,not matter how small,that can be negatively marked and do everything textbook perfect on that day. Then, the tech caller cannot touch the score and so you’ve got some control over your PCS range.

Skaters know that,coaches know that,so only thing skaters/coaches can do is to raise their technical content and hope PCS favors them on that day.
 

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
congrats to ashley well done in skate, glad to see you skate well.

congrats to caroline great job, keep it up

good job mao,
congrats to all medalist
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
The lack of political support of their skaters from JFSF side won't go unnoticed. Sooner or later, if it keeps going the same way, the trust and credibility of the sport will be damaged. It didn't take long to have empty seats on FS events in other countries. Right now it doesn't seem possible in the country where skaters are rock stars, and I do hope it will be like that forever. Especially, after Dai finally beated some guy in PE in SP, the thing that should have happened from the start. But it wasn't due to JFSF efforts. More like due to international irritation of unfairness and misjudgement. Yet, we had a mini dejavu in ladies event. While in general Ashley, with the TES base value of the second tens at Russian Nationals, won at 4CC fairly, her sudden PCS over Mao is more like politics than a deserved score I think.

So if your favourite skaters win, all is right with the world, but if they lose, it's all politiks. Riiiiiiight.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Well, I doubt that generating of any ISU revenue in Japan takes place because people on average are well-off. They could easily spend the power of their purses on something esle. The fact that they spend it on FS means that the popularity of FS in Japan is super high. For now. But everything has its beginning. The lack of political support of their skaters from JFSF side won't go unnoticed. Sooner or later, if it keeps going the same way, the trust and credibility of the sport will be damaged. It didn't take long to have empty seats on FS events in other countries. Right now it doesn't seem possible in the country where skaters are rock stars, and I do hope it will be like that forever. Especially, after Dai finally beated some guy in PE in SP, the thing that should have happened from the start. But it wasn't due to JFSF efforts. More like due to international irritation of unfairness and misjudgement. Yet, we had a mini dejavu in ladies event. While in general Ashley, with the TES base value of the second tens at Russian Nationals, won at 4CC fairly, her sudden PCS over Mao is more like politics than a deserved score I think.

Fairly or not, PCS is affected by program errors. Yu-Na's score was probably 5 falls ahead of Mao at the 2010 Olympics; do you think if Yu-Na fell 5 times she would have been scored above Mao? That is an extreme example, but at 4CC Mao's lutz was bad, and she had a couple of other noticeable errors. These affected her TES and PCS score. Ashley was clean as a whistle and had arguably the best or second best choreographed LP. To me they should have been close.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I'd just like to point out that the judging panel for the Ladies was: KOR TPE CHN JPN MEX USA CAN AUS. Four Asian judges vs one US judge. Sorry, I don't see any politics in this judging, it was all about the SKATING. Ashley was clean and dynamic, while Mao was slow and cautious, did a 3a<, had a hand down on the lutz, and doubled the salchow.
 
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