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Thread: LADIES LONG PROGRAM Thread

  1. #691
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ Did someone ring for me?

    "I wish they all could be California, I wish they all could be California, I wish they all could be California girls!" ♫♪

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYEhAnnzCkM

    (I'm not sure that Mills choreographed that doubled jump at the end, but oh well.)

    He also did Hands and Kissing Me for Michelle.

  2. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by skfan View Post
    i respect your right to your opinion, but to me, ashley's arm movements are unaesthetic. even if it goes with the music, unaesthetic is unaesthetic.

    as for mao's spiral, i agree that she tilts forward a bit too much in her back--i really do not favor legs hiked up to vertical on spirals--that's not what makes them beautiful--but i have always admired a long held spiral with the arms not waving or flapping. i don't understand what you mean when you said she could have 'done something.' what was lacking or objectionable about mao's spiral? was MK's change of edge spiral lacking because she didn't change her arm position while she spiraled for so-darn-long? not to me. MK didn't even need to change the edge to impress me.
    Just to clarify, I didn't bring up the spiral sequences to argue about which one was better or more aesthetically appealing. I was bringing them up to refute the point by 100yen that Mao's program was "more detailed" than Ashley's. It's not. The spiral sequence is just one example where Ashley has more details than Mao, certainly not fewer.

    Nothing was particularly objectionable about Mao's spiral, and I was never arguing about which was more aesthetically appealing. Nor was I arguing that Mao needs to have arm movements in order to improve her spiral--I just cited this fact to support my argument that Ashley does have a detailed program.

    Mao herself, by the way, has had some unique arm movements during her spiral sequence in the past--see her 2009-2010 FS.

    if i may rant a bit. i've always disliked that nicole bobek (a true queen of spirals) would move her arms around and often rest her hand on her hip during her spiral. for me, a good spiral can give the image of flying--i don't need the arm motion, i don't need the skater to do much of anything, because if the skater has a nice edge, decent speed, there's more than enough motion to change the scenery (what the audience member sees) as the skater goes round the rink. unless the camera is zooming in the skater's boobs or boots...
    Well, that's the thing--Mao has beautiful extension, but she doesn't have great speed in her spiral, and it doesn't cover a lot of ice. Where it was placed previously in her FS had a much better music highlight, now, it's kinda crammed in there and she has to hurry up and finish it and go on to her closing pose, so it's rather shortened.

    Quote Originally Posted by 100yen View Post
    I was actually thinking of the spiral sequence specifically when writing this Mao spiral has such extension (and the look on her face!) that I don't think it needs to be accentuated with jerky arm movements. Of course, this isn't the only part...I just find Liebestraum to have more nuances.
    I replied before, but wanted to add on--I mever said that Mao's spiral needed Ashley's arm movements. Also, Mao missed out on some nuances of Liebestraum here--because of the hand down on the lutz, she missed the brief transition she does after it (this used to be an Ina Bauer; at 2011 Nationals it was a brief spread eagle).

    No biggie if you love Mao's performance more, and I totally understand if you don't care for Ashley's program--but Ashley does have details, transitions, choreography, you name it.

  3. #693
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    They've used the area for skating for years... as I said previously I don't think the number of medical emergencies really warrants a ban on use of the facilities for competition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    (A new state legislature came into power that year and the new legislators weren't figure skating fans. )
    ^
    Sooo Michele for President?!?

    Thank you for the reply. Toni I didnt say the arena to be banned! I didnt have in mind medical emergency other than Nan Song but I read in all threads that many skaters were not great situation at the end or couldnt perform well. I havent read similar comments in another competition lately, people seemed to bring this reason a lot.
    I didnt also remember any major event there after GPF when Sandu won but ok, I dont follow everything. Oh and I wasnt aware that this is the place of USFSA so...

  4. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    As sky-fly20 says, it was a reference to the fact that Japan is the only country in the world right now that generates any revenue for the ISU.

    This was in response to the post by NotAnybody'sMother that the Japanese Federation was not in a position to apply any political clout to affect the outcome of this contest. And perhaps this played a role in placing the U.S. skater, Wagner, ahead of Asada.

    My point was that politics is only politics, but money is money. Overall, the ISU is not going to stack the deck against Japanese skaters just because some other federation has political pull.
    Well, I doubt that generating of any ISU revenue in Japan takes place because people on average are well-off. They could easily spend the power of their purses on something esle. The fact that they spend it on FS means that the popularity of FS in Japan is super high. For now. But everything has its beginning. The lack of political support of their skaters from JFSF side won't go unnoticed. Sooner or later, if it keeps going the same way, the trust and credibility of the sport will be damaged. It didn't take long to have empty seats on FS events in other countries. Right now it doesn't seem possible in the country where skaters are rock stars, and I do hope it will be like that forever. Especially, after Dai finally beated some guy in PE in SP, the thing that should have happened from the start. But it wasn't due to JFSF efforts. More like due to international irritation of unfairness and misjudgement. Yet, we had a mini dejavu in ladies event. While in general Ashley, with the TES base value of the second tens at Russian Nationals, won at 4CC fairly, her sudden PCS over Mao is more like politics than a deserved score I think.

  5. #695
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Well, I doubt that generating of any ISU revenue in Japan takes place because people on average are well-off. They could easily spend the power of their purses on something esle. The fact that they spend it on FS means that the popularity of FS in Japan is super high. For now. But everything has its beginning. The lack of political support of their skaters from JFSF side won't go unnoticed. Sooner or later, if it keeps going the same way, the trust and credibility of the sport will be damaged. It didn't take long to have empty seats on FS events in other countries. Right now it doesn't seem possible in the country where skaters are rock stars, and I do hope it will be like that forever. Especially, after Dai finally beated some guy in PE in SP, the thing that should have happened from the start. But it wasn't due to JFSF efforts. More like due to international irritation of unfairness and misjudgement. Yet, we had a mini dejavu in ladies event. While in general Ashley, with the TES base value of the second tens at Russian Nationals, won at 4CC fairly, her sudden PCS over Mao is more like politics than a deserved score I think.
    I may be too naive for this sport, but I am not into conspiracy theories and political plots very much. I would like to think that most of the time the judges are honest and do their best to score conscientiously.

    That said, I think there is a "home court advantage." The judges, like everyone else, can get caught up in the emotions of the moment. Ashley Wagner gave an excellent and exuberant performance. It was scored 20 points above her previous personal best because it was the skate of a lifetime for her (so far ).

    The point I was making before is exactly that I am sure that the ISU realizes and understands everything you said in you post about the popularity of skating in Japan. They would be idiots to hold back Japanese skaters for some silly political foolishness. If there sport loses ground in Japan the ISU will be up the creek, and I am pretty sure that Cinquanta and his cronies know that full well.

    As for PCSs, I don't really know what they mean any more. The "second mark" used to go to the skater that wowed the audience with his technique and passion as a performing artist; to the skater that could make us laugh, make us cry, make us feel the music; who could touch our hearts and stir our souls. That sort of thing has been pushed aside in the present scoring system. So it is harder for me to say, oh, this skater obviously deserved higher component scores that that one.

  6. #696
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    PCS is used to uphold different skaters at different times according to whatever is deemed appropriate to the particular situation. BUT,there still is a corridor on how much someone can be upheld by PCS, and that corridor is determined by the technical score.

    HOWEVER,technical score can also be manipulated to a degree according to the technical caller. Sometimes,underrotations and wrong edges will be ignored for all skaters or for specific skater(s) on all the jumps or some of the jumps,at other times,not. If there is a tournament where the tech call is inconsistent,like at 4CC---virtually no flutzes called except for Kanako’s and underrotations also ignored except for Mao’s triple axel---then you know there’s politics at play.

    Given that this is how figure skating is judged, what can skaters and coaches do? They just have to train and train and train and make sure that they get rid of all and every single aspect of their skating and technique,not matter how small,that can be negatively marked and do everything textbook perfect on that day. Then, the tech caller cannot touch the score and so you’ve got some control over your PCS range.

    Skaters know that,coaches know that,so only thing skaters/coaches can do is to raise their technical content and hope PCS favors them on that day.

  7. #697
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    congrats to ashley well done in skate, glad to see you skate well.

    congrats to caroline great job, keep it up

    good job mao,
    congrats to all medalist

  8. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    The lack of political support of their skaters from JFSF side won't go unnoticed. Sooner or later, if it keeps going the same way, the trust and credibility of the sport will be damaged. It didn't take long to have empty seats on FS events in other countries. Right now it doesn't seem possible in the country where skaters are rock stars, and I do hope it will be like that forever. Especially, after Dai finally beated some guy in PE in SP, the thing that should have happened from the start. But it wasn't due to JFSF efforts. More like due to international irritation of unfairness and misjudgement. Yet, we had a mini dejavu in ladies event. While in general Ashley, with the TES base value of the second tens at Russian Nationals, won at 4CC fairly, her sudden PCS over Mao is more like politics than a deserved score I think.
    So if your favourite skaters win, all is right with the world, but if they lose, it's all politiks. Riiiiiiight.

  9. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Well, I doubt that generating of any ISU revenue in Japan takes place because people on average are well-off. They could easily spend the power of their purses on something esle. The fact that they spend it on FS means that the popularity of FS in Japan is super high. For now. But everything has its beginning. The lack of political support of their skaters from JFSF side won't go unnoticed. Sooner or later, if it keeps going the same way, the trust and credibility of the sport will be damaged. It didn't take long to have empty seats on FS events in other countries. Right now it doesn't seem possible in the country where skaters are rock stars, and I do hope it will be like that forever. Especially, after Dai finally beated some guy in PE in SP, the thing that should have happened from the start. But it wasn't due to JFSF efforts. More like due to international irritation of unfairness and misjudgement. Yet, we had a mini dejavu in ladies event. While in general Ashley, with the TES base value of the second tens at Russian Nationals, won at 4CC fairly, her sudden PCS over Mao is more like politics than a deserved score I think.
    Fairly or not, PCS is affected by program errors. Yu-Na's score was probably 5 falls ahead of Mao at the 2010 Olympics; do you think if Yu-Na fell 5 times she would have been scored above Mao? That is an extreme example, but at 4CC Mao's lutz was bad, and she had a couple of other noticeable errors. These affected her TES and PCS score. Ashley was clean as a whistle and had arguably the best or second best choreographed LP. To me they should have been close.

  10. #700
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    I'd just like to point out that the judging panel for the Ladies was: KOR TPE CHN JPN MEX USA CAN AUS. Four Asian judges vs one US judge. Sorry, I don't see any politics in this judging, it was all about the SKATING. Ashley was clean and dynamic, while Mao was slow and cautious, did a 3a<, had a hand down on the lutz, and doubled the salchow.

  11. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    I'd just like to point out that the judging panel for the Ladies was: KOR TPE CHN JPN MEX USA CAN AUS. Four Asian judges vs one US judge. Sorry, I don't see any politics in this judging, it was all about the SKATING. Ashley was clean and dynamic, while Mao was slow and cautious, did a 3a<, had a hand down on the lutz, and doubled the salchow.
    The whole competition is inflated as usual and the tech caller is not very strict. There are no 'e' calls on Flip or Lutz, a lot of jumps that are on border line get away with no < for all the skaters. But I think in the end Ashley is rightful winner. I think the podium placement is right and good for all skaters. Mao knows she needs to work hard on her jumps and hopefully everything will be according to the plan. Ashley will have more comfident heading to world where she will face off again with Mao, Kostner and Akiko. I think all four will be podium contender.

  12. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    So if your favourite skaters win, all is right with the world, but if they lose, it's all politiks. Riiiiiiight.
    Change "your" into "mine" and the statement will be perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Fairly or not, PCS is affected by program errors.
    I wish it were true in men's event, especially when errors like a fall are chosen not to be seen at all.

  13. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    I'd just like to point out that the judging panel for the Ladies was: KOR TPE CHN JPN MEX USA CAN AUS. Four Asian judges vs one US judge. Sorry, I don't see any politics in this judging, it was all about the SKATING. Ashley was clean and dynamic, while Mao was slow and cautious, did a 3a<, had a hand down on the lutz, and doubled the salchow.
    The nationals of judging panel is not so related to the scores.For example,KOR is ALWAYS hates Japanese skaters and gives other skaters huge one,USA gives their national skaters too much, CAN is the same as USA. Others are quite fair I think from my collection/examination for a long time.
    The placement was right as everyone posts.What I can't agree is the scores both of Ashely and Mao got. Ashley's FS was maybe her best in her career besides it's a competition in her country yet 128+ for no second triple or signature elements like Alissa's spins or Carolina's skating skill.
    Anyways,I can't find Ashley's interviews,Mao has quite good feeling on 3A and programs and the mistakes she had made was because she focus on 3A too much. Mr.Sato was talking to her with her performance there until 4a.m. So it seems her preparation for WC will be going well.

  14. #704
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Wagner skated her best LP program ever. While you can't compare across events, her TES killed Kostner's at Euros because she had 2 flips, 2 loops and a Lutz whereas Kostner had NO Lutz and repeated easier triples and the 2A (and struggled with some landings). Kostner's PCS was still higher at Euros than Wagner's at 4CC, and Wagner skated with her best speed, flow, and command ever at 4CC (and that includes US Nationals). Her PCS went up to reflect that.
    Wagner's TES was not outrageous for what she did. All her jumps were fully rotated. Her jumping elements averaged less than +1 GOE each in her FS; it's not like she was getting +2 and +3 across the board on her jumps like Yuna Kim. Her spins were all level 4 and step sequence was level 3 and were all + GOEs but not outrageously so (Czisny should get +3's for her best spins, Wagner got mostly +1s and +2s for her best spins and they satisfied the proper bullets to deserve those). Her spiral sequence got +3 GOE but it certainly satisfied the bullets for it.

    Wagner's BV was 56 and with some positive on each element, she got a 66.61 TES. I just don't see where you can say it was overscored, except maybe on the 3Lz (which she only got +0.8 on, but you could argue it should have gotten an "e" and should have gotten a negative GOE, but then you'd have to say Asada's and Zhang's were also "e" and their negative GOE should have increased on theirs). Please walk me through her protocol and point out WHERE it is overscored (other than the Lz), otherwise, just because she beat your favorite doesn't mean she was overscored.

  15. #705
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    I thought the scoring was particularly fair this event. Ashley was the clear winner IMO, with Mao as a close 2nd.

    Ashley had the skate of her life! She was clean on all of her elements, her spins were good, her spiral was great, difficult transitions...she earned that score, definitely. Mao's skate was good by her standards but not good enough in the wake of Ashley's flawless skate. Both ladies had lovely detailed programs and solid elements, but Mao left the door open with her <3a, 2s and the hand down on her 3lz. Had she not made two of those mistakes, she would have won.

    Ashley outskated her; plain and simple.

    Caroline had a kick@$$ skate and I'm so proud of her for coming in 3rd here! Well deserved. I'm proud of Kanako too, although at the end of that performance I thought she might pass out. She looked so winded, and she wasn't the only one. A number of the girls looked like they were ready to keel over at the end of those 4 mins.
    Last edited by kwanatic; 02-14-2012 at 01:41 PM.

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