02-13-2012, 11:16 AM
Exactly. What V/M do with lines, edges, music articulation, unison, .... is simply sublime. There are new nuances to see everytime they skate their programs. There is a reason why so many of the "greats" of the past, many of their current competitors, commentators around the world, etc. consider V/M to be in a class of their own. Looking at the PCS scores yesterday, I still think the judges aren't understanding the brilliance of the FD this year. In my mind and understanding of PCS, there is no way that D/W should finish ahead of V/M in PCS. I'm hoping the judges understand better at Worlds, but somehow I think the current trend is loud, bombastic music skated as fast as possible.
Originally Posted by skatingbc
02-13-2012, 11:25 AM
There are some comments on icenetwork that I agree with. One is that the scores at 4CC's are "fishy" and may have something to do with backlash/overcompensation for the GPF scoring malfunction. It would be nice if there was an explanation why D/W's movements were suddenly level 3-worthy that have been level 4 all season. The scoring almost seems like revenge. After all, who wants to put up with whining from Skate Canada and Scott Moir about "unfairness". Better throw in an extra cushion to prevent any backlash.
The other opinion on icenetwork that I agree with is that - "Scott and Tessa come across more like they are celebrities and they are deserving to be #1 no matter what the other ice dancers put out there." Scott's attitude after GPF was that they should have won even after he fell, which is telling of his attitude all the time, even when he doesn't speak. His language that it was a "piss-off" is not something I even understand, maybe it's Canadian lingo, but his choice of words was horrible. Let's compare that to D/W's response after 4CC's - where they didn't fall - that they were disappointed but would work harder. Class all the way.
skatingbc - I really don't understand your comment about how D/W always skate to "some big piece of music that everyone and their mother knows". Is that what matters now, that the piece of music can never be used in order for it to be a good dance? Let's go back through history and look at all the gold medalists, and see if they are all unworthy because their music has been used before. That's ridiculous. Did anybody ever skate to an Indian dance before? Nope, D/W were the first, it was a masterpiece, and they still lost inexplicably. Phantom and Die Fledermaus may be something "everyone in their mother knows" but they're masterpieces none the less.
The other comments that are crazy are the comments about "lack of connection" between D/W. First of all, they do have a connection, they just don't lie about their relationship like V/M do. There is no score for romance, and why should there be? What about brother and sister teams - should they just be thrown to the dustbins of history because they will never have that "romantic tension"? In fact, I would rather watch a couple who is honest and forthright about who they are (D/W) rather than a couple who manipulates to cover up their romantic relationship (V/M). I am more touched by an authentic performance than a lie-on-ice.
02-13-2012, 11:59 AM
Wicked Yankee Girl
Congratulations to V&M for the win! They skated really well in tough conditions!
The discussion about this competition has taken a turn that confuses me.
I don't see why anyone would cut D&W down because they are better at picking music that will be popular with an audience than V&M
I don't see why V&M want to skate to music that makes it harder to win rather than making it easier.
I don't see why they should be rewarded for making a choice of music that does not appeal on its own merit to audiences. Why is it good for them to pick to skate with an anchor tied to their legs in the form of their music? Personally, I think that skaters are best for the sport when they skate to stuff that pulls the audience off the street and into the arena, or off the Xbox and into the front of the TV (for at least as long as TV coverage is available.).
If V&M doesn't want to dance to music the audience likes, then they don't have to, but it isn't something that I think they should get props for. Nor should their score be penalized for such a pick, either.
02-13-2012, 12:01 PM
congrats to v/m for winning good job
d/w for 2nd
w/p for coming in 3rd
good job all
02-13-2012, 12:02 PM
I watched both programs yesterday and thought that D&W looked slightly off their best form. At the GPF, D&W seemed to float over the ice effortlessly. At 4CC, their dance didn’t have that effortless floating quality. Seeing that Charlies basically had to be helped off the ice by Meryl, I wondered if he was having difficulty breathing, and that was confirmed when I read he was having trouble with his asthma at that altititude.
Originally Posted by leafygreens
When both teams finished at the GPF, I couldn’t decide which team had the better skate. Given how close the marks were, the judges seemed to agree. At 4CC it was easy to see that V&M had the better skate.
Last but certainly not lease, Scott Moir DID NOT say they should have won the GPF. He said they should have won the FD and he was correct. At no point did he say they should have won the gold. And it's hardly arrogance to think you're the best when you're a World and Olympic Champion with the highest score in the FD ever recorded.
02-13-2012, 12:05 PM
The connection does not have to necessarily mean chemistry between the partners(though it helps a lot, especially in a latin themed program) but there must be some connection on the ice between the skaters. It bugs me that D/W almost never look at each other when they skate. Yes, they have gorgeous programs, very well selected, but that doesn't cover the lack of connection and when they compete against someone like V/M who have chemistry in spades, it's even more obvious. This is totally irrelevant though since D/W lost the competition on TES, not on PCS.
02-13-2012, 12:12 PM
Wicked Yankee Girl
Yes, and that is an interesting factoid (that on a bad day for them, D&W still marginally won the PCS in the FD over V&M.)
Those interested in why this is might want to refer to this thread where we really got into it:
Basically, it's because that's the way the rules are currently written.
This is a fact that helps Patrick Chan and Davis & White; so Canadians and Americans each have a dog on both sides of the fight. (The dance & singles PCS have more in common than not, other than timing items and character of the dance items for dance)
02-13-2012, 12:39 PM
I would like to comment on how much I enjoyed the final flight of the Dance. I’m sorry there were only three medals. Weaver & Poje have to be the most improved team this season. They are on such deep edges throughout, and perfectly assume the characters they are portraying. At last they look like a real partnership of equals, something that wasn’t always true in the past.
If Worlds were not being held in France this year, I think they could beat P&B for the bronze. It could still happen but I can wait until next year.
02-13-2012, 02:41 PM
Wicked Yankee Girl
W&P were wonderful! I think it will be very close for the bronze with P&B in Nice for them. They are definitely this year's most improved dancers IMO.
And Alex Shibutani giving a good performance while expending his last ounce of strength was very, very admirable. Maia's self-possession in dealing with it all was also amazing. I think Alex has said something or other like Maia is a 30 yr old in a 16 yr old body (17 now)--I could really see what he meant.
02-13-2012, 02:54 PM
D/W got hit with level3s for their FD and it was because they were a tad off, likely due to Charlie's asthma and the altitude.
I still prefer D/W's FD to V/M's. V/M's "Funny Face" seems more like an exhibition piece to me, and those aren't the best Gershwin tunes IMO. They skated it well, but it doesn't do anything for me.
02-13-2012, 02:55 PM
Yes. I was watching their elements in slo-mo and their matching lines are amazing. They never hit a bad position throughout. But I was really concerned when I saw Alex's lips were bright blue at the end of his program. I thought they would be giving him oxygen in the KnC.
Originally Posted by dorispulaski
02-13-2012, 03:00 PM
For the record, Virtue/Moir have chosen many audience friendly pieces of music as well: Valse Triste, Umbrellas of Cherbourg, Flamenco, Mahler (skating fans may think it boring but audiences love this kind of sweet stuff). And most especially the music from last year's Latin FD: you'd have to be dead to not be affected by Hip Hip Chin Chin or Mujer Latina.
My point is that both Virtue/Moir and Davis/White have gone back and forth in picking audience-friendly music and programs over the years. So this argument I keep seeing pop up time and again, that D/W consistently skate to easier music, is total BS.
02-13-2012, 03:32 PM
Well said Apple Pi! It's amusing that many fans of V/M and D/W are so vehemently black and white about their opinions (very much like Mao vs Yuna and Michelle vs Sasha). Both are outstanding and have that special something in different ways. V/M were clearly better at 4CC as D/W were a tad off. D/W were clearly better than V/M at GPF. Can't we just appreciate how fortunate we are to have two amazing teams creating all this passion?
Originally Posted by Apple Pi
02-13-2012, 03:42 PM
I enjoy both of the top two's free dances. That rarely happens for me. I am not emotionally invested in either team like I've been with other teams (I actually like The Shibs out of the top teams out of Igor and Marina's stable), but I noticed right off in Meryl and Charlie's skate was that they were off the music. They started too fast and ended up ahead of the music by quite a bit. So, in the FD at 4CC. Ok so the levels are what we are discussing, they looked like they were trying to figure out how to get back on track for the first third to half of the program. Add in the breathing issues and I can totally see them dropping a level or two. They weren't on their game yesterday. Tessa and Scott did better overall and they won. It's a "big" gap, sure, but looking back on it I can see why it happened.
It's not over, and it won't be over even after worlds. I see no reason to tear down either team. We should just be thankful we've got these two to have such a GREAT rivalry and push teh sport.
02-13-2012, 04:13 PM
Wicked Yankee Girl
What I was replying to was a poster who thought D&W should be damned for skating to audience friendly music and V&M rewarded for skating to less audience friendly pieces. I thought it was a crock. I still do. It's more a crock if you feel V&M has audience friendly music, now that I think about it.
For the record, people's taste in music differs. For me:
I am intend affected by Hip Hip Chin Chin.
I am affected to turn off the radio!
but if Tessa & Scott are skating to it, I'll watch, but curse their musical choice, especially this year when a lot of other teams are using it.
Mujer Latina I really like.
Flamenco has a lot of heel tapping and does nothing for me musically, without their skating.
Umbrellas I detest 1000 times, especially the J'taime yelling, and the whole soppy I will wait for you song. I hated it long before I knew Tessa & Scott existed. Likewise S'Wonderful.
But I don't think teams should either be rewarded or penalized for their musical choices.