Pairs Long Program 2:00 PM EST | Page 14 | Golden Skate

Pairs Long Program 2:00 PM EST

mousepotato

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
Han said they will go to both Sr and Jr worlds if they are in fact asked to go to Sr worlds by the Chinese fed. No team as of yet has been named. I would send the Zhangs to srs and S/H to jrs.
 

heyhey

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Finally getting to watching the TV coverage of the pairs at 4CC. For the Canadians, I feel that Skate Canada should have used this competition to decide who to actually send to Worlds. Sorry, but Dube/Wolfe are still not ready for prime time. Yes, she is the former Canadian champion with a different partner. Yes, she is the supposed veteran. But that is precisely why it is so wrong for Skate Canada to send them to Worlds. Give them until next year. It's not the best thing for them, never mind for the potential spots for next year's worlds. If they go to worlds and do not place well, they will set a precedent, and it will be much harder for them next year. Add the Europeans and Russians to the mix, and they will be lucky to even crack the top 10. Poor Wolf is just out of Junior. Can we please let these 2 develop properly? There is good potential if they have the space and a little more time to gel as a team and get the tricks down. None of the Canadian skaters did particularly well here. All things considered, if the goal is to earn 3 spots to worlds next year, then Skate Canada should send D/R and MT/M. That is our best chance for 3 spots next year. MT/M had a horrendous skate at Nationals, but they have the highest international ranking with or next to D/R, and just missed the GPF. Once again, Skate Canada is shooting itself in the foot. I guess it is kind of hard to change now, but this is just so wrong after watching this event. If they could use this event as the decider for the ladies, I don't see why they couldn't do the same for the pairs, out of the bubble of Nationals.

Totally agree and the judging in pairs at 4CCs was lenient. If Canada does not obtain 3 pair spots next year for worlds it will be a huge missed opportunity. This is not to put down Dube/Wolfe but really their programs are not competitive with the top 8-10 in the world at this stage. Total miscalculation on Skate Canada's part.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Blades, I can appreciate what you're saying about death spirals--but I would rather not put the judges against the skaters and the ISU tech committee. What should happen is that fans, coaches, and skaters should all petition the ISU to get rid of these crap death spirals.

Also, I would like you to explain to me how to see a full rotation of prerotation in the throw and the twist, because clearly I am not looking at it in the right way--I'm not seeing it.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Eh, if Mt/M and D/R skate how they have been this season, I doubt we'd get the third slot anyway. Three Russian teams + the Germans + 2 Chinese teams make that difficult.
 

skateflower

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
I agree. Dube/Wolfe were something of a disaster at 4CC. Skate Canada should have sent MT/M to 4CC instead of Lawrence/Sweigers and declared a skate-off between D/W and MT/M as they did with the ladies.

Yeah, it's dumb to leave MT/M at home. They've been doing very well at the GP events.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Blades, I can appreciate what you're saying about death spirals--but I would rather not put the judges against the skaters and the ISU tech committee. What should happen is that fans, coaches, and skaters should all petition the ISU to get rid of these crap death spirals.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Judges are supposed to grade the quality of an element on an absolute scale. The fact that these death spirals have poor positions and lose speed is something they should be marking off for. Skaters should have to choose which level element they want to put in the program by weighing how much GOE than can get (and of course how well it fits the choreography and music). If you score more points on a Level 3 element because you execute it better than a Level 4, then you should probably be doing that move instead. If GOE is just given out freely and without a critical eye, though, then everyone just does the max level element regardless of how well they can execute it because they know the judges will give them +GOE (or at least not give -GOE) anyway.

Also, I would like you to explain to me how to see a full rotation of prerotation in the throw and the twist, because clearly I am not looking at it in the right way--I'm not seeing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOom45KXw70&t=6m35s

It appears to me that his hand doesn't leave her until she is facing him in the air on that Quad Salchow. He's picking her up and spinning her into the rotation.

On the Quad twist he releases her 3/4 of a rotation into it and then starts to catch her when 1/4 rotation is still left, so that too is a full turn of rotation which isn't completed in the air.

It's perfectly acceptable (and necessary in the majority of cases) for every jump, throw, and twist in skating to have a half turn of rotation not completed in the air during the takeoff. That's simply natural. When it goes beyond that, though, it becomes cheating. Now we must remember that 1/4 turn leeway is also allowed. A quad jump or throw can have 1/2 turn of setup rotation not done in the air and 1/4 turn of final rotation not completed fully in the air and still be considered complete. Thus, the bare minimum amount of air rotation for a Quad is 3.25 turns. For a Triple it is 2.25 turns. For a double it is 1.25 turns. If a jump or throw or twist is pre-rotated an extra 1/4 rotation on the takeoff past that acceptable 1/2 turn amount, then it should be understood that the jump/throw needs to be landed 100% backwards in order to be seen as complete. The 1/4 turn leeway that is allowed for the landing has already been used on the takeoff.

Because Sui/Han only completed these quads with 3 turns of rotation done fully in the air (rather than the minimum 3.25), they should be seen as underrotated. The ISU has not yet created a scale of values for underrotated throws and twists as they have for jumps, though. It's something that needs to be looked into. I do agree with ImaginaryPogue, however, that the base values for Quad throws and twists are undervalued in the CoP right now. So in that sense cheating these elements isn't as big of a deal to me because they aren't worth enough to begin with. The amount they are currently worth is closer to what the underrotated versions should be worth. Fully-rotated Quad throws and twists should be worth a couple points more than they currently are.
 

skateflower

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
. I will not accept any less.

Here's your theme song if I may sum it up:

1. Yu Na Kim is Goddness, Mao is inferior.
2. Russians are Gods and Goddesses. Tuktamysheva will not grow because her parents are short( really? have you taken their DNA samples?).
3. Chinese skaters are inferior.
 
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DianaSelene

Medalist
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Here's your theme song if I may sum it up:

1. Yu Na Kim is Goddness, Mao is inferior.
2. Russians are Gods and Goddesses. Tuktamysheva will not grow because her parents are short( really? have you taken their DNA samples?).
3. Chinese skaters are inferior.

Interesting, how did Kim, Asada, Tuktamysheva, Russian skaters in general, and Chinese skaters in general get into this thread? Remember that it's called pairs long program? So a person who particularly prefers Kim to Asada, thinks Russian pair skaters are good, and dislike Sui/Han have this particular theme song or superiority/inferiority?
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
BoP, Thanks for the explanation. I was looking at when her feet left the ice, not when Han's hands left her body.

BTW, the double footing is particularly clear in the slo mo.

It's true that quad throws, twists, and triple axel throws are undervalued in pairs COP, IMO.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Here's your theme song if I may sum it up:

1. Yu Na Kim is Goddness, Mao is inferior.
2. Russians are Gods and Goddesses. Tuktamysheva will not grow because her parents are short( really? have you taken their DNA samples?).
3. Chinese skaters are inferior.

I"m not even sure how I can respond but by saying Sui/Han doesn't = every single Chinese skater. A couple of years ago Chen Lu was my avatar. And while I prefer the Russian school of pairs skating, I actually did prefer S/Z to T/M. One skater doesn't equal an entire nationality. There are skaters of every nationality, I like and don't like.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I"m not even sure how I can respond but by saying Sui/Han doesn't = every single Chinese skater. A couple of years ago Chen Lu was my avatar. And while I prefer the Russian school of pairs skating, I actually did prefer S/Z to T/M. One skater doesn't equal an entire nationality. There are skaters of every nationality, I like and don't like.

Don't forget that you were annoyed that Kim beat Asada in the 2010 WC LP (overall and on PCS), so the first point doesn't make all that much sense either. skateflower, would you mind explaining that further?
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
It's true that quad throws, twists, and triple axel throws are undervalued in pairs COP, IMO.

Oh, yes, the throw Triple Axel is undervalued as well! I can't for the life of me understand why Savchenko/Szolkowy thought it was worthwhile to train the throw Triple Axel this season. What is the chance of hitting it cleanly? Unless it is delivered cleanly it's not worth more than their throw Triple Flip, because of how poorly skewed the base values are, and there's a greater chance of missing completely (which then screws you over). Even if you do hit it clean, you're only getting about 2 or 2.5 more points. Those kinds of big risk moves are more for teams that need something to set themselves apart to try and bring down the World Champions.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
The article interviewed the ISU about these discrepancies. The ISU presumably was unable to prove things one way or another, because Sui & Han are still skating in both juniors and seniors. If the dates published in the article were correct, Sui is eligible for junior, but not senior worlds, and Han is eligible for senior worlds, but not junior worlds.

As the article also reports, a complaint to the Olympic committee about ages did result in sanctions against a Chinese gymnast over age discrepancies.

It is also true that one year, the Chinese federation sent three pair teams to Junior Worlds, when they were only entitled to send two. This would also be a violation of ISU rules
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
that article is a year old.
but if speculations are true. Sui is 14 now and eligible for junior worlds.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
The article interviewed the ISU about these discrepancies. The ISU presumably was unable to prove things one way or another, because Sui & Han are still skating in both juniors and seniors. If the dates published in the article were correct, Sui is eligible for junior, but not senior worlds, and Han is eligible for senior worlds, but not junior worlds.

that article is a year old.
but if speculations are true. Sui is 14 now and eligible for junior worlds.

Yes, and I said so, see bolded section above, but Han is not eligible for Junior Worlds, since he is now 22, if the original articles' sources were correct.
 
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