Pairs Long Program 2:00 PM EST | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Pairs Long Program 2:00 PM EST

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Sui and Han have perfectly competent skating skills. And as performers, they're among the best in the world for any age. Han pulls off flamenco better than almost any skater I've seen. Anyway, here are shots of the two quadruples: the quad salchow, the quad twist.

Right. Perfectly competent equals average. Maybe above average if you're generous. That's what I think of when I hear "Competent"

So they should get 5-6 for skating skills. 5 = Average, 6 = Above Average. They're being judged as good to very good. If they deserve 7.46 (what they got), Aliona/Robin should be at ten and Patrick Chan at 12.
 

sweetskates1

Medalist
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
They were all asked, "How did you feel about competing here?"
Coughlin answered saying that they wanted to do well in front of their home crowd.
Han said that they were nervous because the crowd was very welcoming. They were anxious and excited.
Marley said they were nervous but that you have to adapt to how you feel and just enjoy your performance.
Brubaker said they could feel the response from the crowd and thanked the audience for cheering them on the whole way. (how sweet they seem :) )

Why do you continue to skate? Or Why do you skate?
Brubaker responded saying something along the lines of the dream is representing and competing for the USA at Olympics.
Sui/Han hope to make their dream of winning gold at the Olympics as well.
Coughlin likes representing the US. He said that it is a wonderful feeling to see the US flag being raised for something they did together.

Caydey Denney: How do you feel about having been together for such a short time. Answer they work hard every day.

Have you dropped your partner?
Brubaker said "The girls believe we are going to catch them. Our number 1 concern is our partner's safety."
Han: I could not understand his English but he made a sweet joke.
Coughlin: Caydee drops me every day.
 

skateflower

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Right. Perfectly competent equals average. Maybe above average if you're generous. That's what I think of when I hear "Competent"

So they should get 5-6 for skating skills. 5 = Average, 6 = Above Average. They're being judged as good to very good. If they deserve 7.46 (what they got), Aliona/Robin should be at ten and Patrick Chan at 12.

This is so stupid. What should all the other pairs get in this competitons? 8? 9? or 4?
 

UnChosen

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 12, 2006
Right. Perfectly competent equals average. Maybe above average if you're generous. That's what I think of when I hear "Competent"

So they should get 5-6 for skating skills. 5 = Average, 6 = Above Average. They're being judged as good to very good. If they deserve 7.46 (what they got), Aliona/Robin should be at ten and Patrick Chan at 12.

Take off some mark from SS for average edging skills, give some mark to SS for speed and acceleration. Take some mark off everything else for having junior programs, give some mark to non SS PCS for having music that actually fits, selling the program well, and not having falls.

Then reduce every team's PCS due to 4CC inflation.

The relative difference won't change...but it'll "look" better.
 

cutesonic

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 29, 2011
Right. Perfectly competent equals average. Maybe above average if you're generous. That's what I think of when I hear "Competent"

So they should get 5-6 for skating skills. 5 = Average, 6 = Above Average. They're being judged as good to very good. If they deserve 7.46 (what they got), Aliona/Robin should be at ten and Patrick Chan at 12.

You can do nothing but see them being the athletes people like
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
This is so stupid. What should all the other pairs get in this competitons? 8? 9? or 4?

Can you clarify what is stupid?

The idea that average = five? If so, that's the ISU talking

The idea that competent equals average? According to the dictionary, one definition of competent is "adequate but not exceptional."

I'm confused by what's stupid about my post. Can you explain it to me?

cutesonic, I think you have to recognize that bekalc's perspective is legitimate.
 

skateflower

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
The idea that competent equals average? According to the dictionary, one definition of competent is "adequate but not exceptional."

I'm confused by what's stupid about my post. Can you explain it to me?

.

If this is not stupid, I don't know what is. So you think the other pairs in this competiton should get higher pcs than Sui/Hai? Who?

John COUGHLIN is a truck driver, he doesn't really have much better ss.
Mary Beth MARLEY / Rockne BRUBAKER? LOL.
Meagan DUHAMEL / Eric RADFORD? Meagan's ss is not much better either.

Sui/Han has massive speed, complex choreography and in-between... Tell me which pair's pcs should be higher than theirs in this competition?

If you're going to hand 5 to them, that's your pejorative but i don't think it's worth much.
 

cutesonic

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 29, 2011
Can you clarify what is stupid?

The idea that average = five? If so, that's the ISU talking

The idea that competent equals average? According to the dictionary, one definition of competent is "adequate but not exceptional."

I'm confused by what's stupid about my post. Can you explain it to me?

cutesonic, I think you have to recognize that bekalc's perspective is legitimate.

Well, I disagree with the logic. It's easier to do quads when you're younger. But did anyone successfully do quads when they are juniors? SS? No! So stop using this as an excuse to blame them. They are techinically brilliant. For PCS, everyone can share their opinion, but not hatred or attack. At least the judges appreciate them. If you want to change it, then try to be a judge if you can.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Firstly, Sui/Han deserved to win. By including those high base value elements (which are actually undervaluled in pairs skating, I feel), they start with such sky high base value that it would take a poor skate from them AND a great skate from someone else to win. That didn't happen.

Secondly, that they deserved to win doesn't mean they weren't overscored, or that overscoring doesn't matter.

Here's the criteria for Skating Skills

Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement

Flow and effortless glide: Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and
acceleration.

Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns: The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps.

Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration: Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle

Multi directional skating: Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and counterclockwise including rotation in both directions.

Mastery of one foot skating: No over use of skating on two feet.

Pair Skating and Ice Dancing: Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison.

a) Outside the elements, it's all two foot skating. Very much stroke, stroke, stroke

b) They're quick, but it's not effortless. It's the same thing Murakami struggled with and why her SS aren't as high as they could be even though she's fast, so you don't have that glide, that smoothness, that precision, that high skating skill technicians are able to get.

c) There's very little in the way of great edge control that again, we see in the top teams (not here, but in general)

So already, out of the seven criteria, they lack a strong hold with four of them. They did well in the multi-directional skating and showed a variety of speed well, and seemed pretty equal to me. To me, that's around a six. What do you think, skateflower?
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
well I guess that rumor started from you , we know they have been on the scene for a few years now, so what is it? Sui won her Jr title at 10/11 years old. This is so ridiculous it doesn't even deserve a comment.

Okay, lets be entirely fair.

There was controversy about the ages last season when, on a Chinese website ran by the federation, the ages of about eight teams/singles slaters was posted. The ages posted revealed that none would've been eligible to compete in the events they did, and the way the ages were done both up and down suggested it was deliberate. When the ISU asked the Chinese federation about it, they said it was a transcribing error and in fact the correct ages were all in line with ISU rules. The ISU had no grounds to investigate further, but given that we've seen these reveals before prove to be true, one tends to give it a little more credibility than they would otherwise.

But as it was never proven, it's not fair of bekalc to use it as a reason to bring them down, regardless of belief.
 

skateflower

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
To me, that's around a six. What do you think, skateflower?

Almost every skater, every pair has been overscored. The PCS keeps on rising and rising. The top ice dancing teams are getting 10, 10, 10!!

Tell me how many team deserve 7+ in this competition or at GP events or at Euros based on your opinion according to these 'criteria' and we can talk.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Almost every skater, every pair has been overscored. The PCS keeps on rising and rising. The top ice dancing teams are getting 10, 10, 10!!

Tell me how many team deserve 7+ in this competition or at GP events or at Euros based on your opinion according to these 'criteria' and we can talk.

Actually, I think it's fair for me to ask you what you think S/H deserve for Skating Skills, based not on 'criteria' but on the published guidelines from the ISU as opposed to ask me to go over every skate in the GP and Euros and here. After all, you're insulting those who disagree with you here.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Looking back I actually was really harsh on the whole I can't wait for puberty thing. Its not fair to blame Sui/Han.
 
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Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
please remember the guidelines. we do not allow rumors on the boards. we also do not allow insults being thrown at one another. Posts have been unapproved for both of these reasons.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Sui/Han deserved to win but they didn't deserve nearly as much credit as they got:

1.) The Quad Salchow was overscored. She has already done a full turn by the time he releases her and it was a blatantly two-footed landing. Not one of the biggest throws out there either, for modern pairs skating.

2.) The side-by-side 3Toe-2Toe-2Toe was a disgrace. First of all, both of her 2Toe's were underrotated and didn't get called. Second of all, this should have been -2 GOE across the board for such small, shaky jumps and horrendous destruction of unison.

3.) The Quad Twist again featured her doing a full turn before he fully releases and then she lands on his shoulder, almost like a sack of potatoes. One judge thought that was worthy of +3 GOE.

4.) The side-by-side spin lost unison and became overly separated. Some judges think that is worthy of a +2 GOE. It should have been -1.

5.) She very noticeably loses balance and position on the first lift but there is no penalty, just +GOE yet again in fact.

6.) Positive GOE across the board for the 2Axels, in which she does a tiny jump and he lands on the wrong edge.

7.) She is too far up from the ice on the death spiral and this move features the typical loss of speed and flow from the change-of-hand. Almost every judge gives it +2 GOE.

8.) Their throw Triple Flip was nice, but +3 GOE from almost every judge? So, this was as good of a throw as Savchenko/Swolkowy at their best? I don't buy it.

If you change those grades to what I feel is appropriate, Sui/Han were overscored in the tech mark by 9 points.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Sui/Han deserved to win but they didn't deserve nearly as much credit as they got:

1.) The Quad Salchow was overscored. She has already done a full turn by the time he releases her and it was a blatantly two-footed landing. Not one of the biggest throws out there either, for modern pairs skating.

2.) The side-by-side 3Toe-2Toe-2Toe was a disgrace. First of all, both of her 2Toe's were underrotated and didn't get called. Second of all, this should have been -2 GOE across the board for such small, shaky jumps and horrendous destruction of unison.

3.) The Quad Twist again featured her doing a full turn before he fully releases and then she lands on his shoulder, almost like a sack of potatoes. One judge thought that was worthy of +3 GOE.

4.) The side-by-side spin lost unison and became overly separated. Some judges think that is worthy of a +2 GOE. It should have been -1.

5.) She very noticeably loses balance and position on the first lift but there is no penalty, just +GOE yet again in fact.

6.) Positive GOE across the board for the 2Axels, in which she does a tiny jump and he lands on the wrong edge.

7.) She is too far up from the ice on the death spiral and this move features the typical loss of speed and flow from the change-of-hand. Almost every judge gives it +2 GOE.

8.) Their throw Triple Flip was nice, but +3 GOE from almost every judge? So, this was as good of a throw as Savchenko/Swolkowy at their best? I don't buy it.

If you change those grades to what I feel is appropriate, Sui/Han were overscored in the tech mark by 9 points.

I agree, and if they do the same skate at Worlds they will likely score in the mid 120 range. I suspect there was some politics at play to push their score in a weak field and justify sending to them to Senior Worlds over the Zhangs (which I expect will now happen).
 

zhuzhu

Spectator
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Okay, lets be entirely fair.

There was controversy about the ages last season when, on a Chinese website ran by the federation, the ages of about eight teams/singles slaters was posted. The ages posted revealed that none would've been eligible to compete in the events they did, and the way the ages were done both up and down suggested it was deliberate. When the ISU asked the Chinese federation about it, they said it was a transcribing error and in fact the correct ages were all in line with ISU rules. The ISU had no grounds to investigate further, but given that we've seen these reveals before prove to be true, one tends to give it a little more credibility than they would otherwise.

But as it was never proven, it's not fair of bekalc to use it as a reason to bring them down, regardless of belief.


Would you please give me some evidence on Sui's age issue? I know a 16 years old chinese girl looks quite different from a 16 years' old non-asia girl. Please take a consideration of Narumi TAKAHASHI, how old is this girl? When I look at Narumi, I don't think she is older than Sui. Please stop take age as the excuse for blaming.
 

UnChosen

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 12, 2006
I agree, and if they do the same skate at Worlds they will likely score in the mid 120 range. I suspect there was some politics at play to push their score in a weak field and justify sending to them to Senior Worlds over the Zhangs (which I expect will now happen).

They'll probably only score in the low 120 range simply because PCS is measured relatively. The more teams that are obviously above them the less their PCS will be. It just happens that in this competition the last placing pair received relatively generous PCS and then most of the pairs that should beat S/H in PCS all have lackluster skates...so S/H's score ends up a bit higher than normal.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
On another note it is a complete joke Sui & Han are sent and are skating at Junior Worlds,regardless if they go to Senior Worlds or not. They have already won the event multiple times, and it is completely unfair to real junior teams to be facing a team with 2 full seasons of Senior experience who have medaled at the GP final, won 4 Continents, and done a 200+ plus point competition at the Senior level. I thought it was wrong last year when they competed at junior Worlds. This year it is a travesty.
 
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