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Thread: Pairs Long Program 2:00 PM EST

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    To me, that's around a six. What do you think, skateflower?
    Almost every skater, every pair has been overscored. The PCS keeps on rising and rising. The top ice dancing teams are getting 10, 10, 10!!

    Tell me how many team deserve 7+ in this competition or at GP events or at Euros based on your opinion according to these 'criteria' and we can talk.
    Last edited by skateflower; 02-12-2012 at 10:43 PM.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    Almost every skater, every pair has been overscored. The PCS keeps on rising and rising. The top ice dancing teams are getting 10, 10, 10!!

    Tell me how many team deserve 7+ in this competition or at GP events or at Euros based on your opinion according to these 'criteria' and we can talk.
    Actually, I think it's fair for me to ask you what you think S/H deserve for Skating Skills, based not on 'criteria' but on the published guidelines from the ISU as opposed to ask me to go over every skate in the GP and Euros and here. After all, you're insulting those who disagree with you here.

  3. #213
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    Looking back I actually was really harsh on the whole I can't wait for puberty thing. Its not fair to blame Sui/Han.
    Last edited by bekalc; 02-12-2012 at 11:26 PM.

  4. #214
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    please remember the guidelines. we do not allow rumors on the boards. we also do not allow insults being thrown at one another. Posts have been unapproved for both of these reasons.

  5. #215
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Sui/Han deserved to win but they didn't deserve nearly as much credit as they got:

    1.) The Quad Salchow was overscored. She has already done a full turn by the time he releases her and it was a blatantly two-footed landing. Not one of the biggest throws out there either, for modern pairs skating.

    2.) The side-by-side 3Toe-2Toe-2Toe was a disgrace. First of all, both of her 2Toe's were underrotated and didn't get called. Second of all, this should have been -2 GOE across the board for such small, shaky jumps and horrendous destruction of unison.

    3.) The Quad Twist again featured her doing a full turn before he fully releases and then she lands on his shoulder, almost like a sack of potatoes. One judge thought that was worthy of +3 GOE.

    4.) The side-by-side spin lost unison and became overly separated. Some judges think that is worthy of a +2 GOE. It should have been -1.

    5.) She very noticeably loses balance and position on the first lift but there is no penalty, just +GOE yet again in fact.

    6.) Positive GOE across the board for the 2Axels, in which she does a tiny jump and he lands on the wrong edge.

    7.) She is too far up from the ice on the death spiral and this move features the typical loss of speed and flow from the change-of-hand. Almost every judge gives it +2 GOE.

    8.) Their throw Triple Flip was nice, but +3 GOE from almost every judge? So, this was as good of a throw as Savchenko/Swolkowy at their best? I don't buy it.

    If you change those grades to what I feel is appropriate, Sui/Han were overscored in the tech mark by 9 points.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Sui/Han deserved to win but they didn't deserve nearly as much credit as they got:

    1.) The Quad Salchow was overscored. She has already done a full turn by the time he releases her and it was a blatantly two-footed landing. Not one of the biggest throws out there either, for modern pairs skating.

    2.) The side-by-side 3Toe-2Toe-2Toe was a disgrace. First of all, both of her 2Toe's were underrotated and didn't get called. Second of all, this should have been -2 GOE across the board for such small, shaky jumps and horrendous destruction of unison.

    3.) The Quad Twist again featured her doing a full turn before he fully releases and then she lands on his shoulder, almost like a sack of potatoes. One judge thought that was worthy of +3 GOE.

    4.) The side-by-side spin lost unison and became overly separated. Some judges think that is worthy of a +2 GOE. It should have been -1.

    5.) She very noticeably loses balance and position on the first lift but there is no penalty, just +GOE yet again in fact.

    6.) Positive GOE across the board for the 2Axels, in which she does a tiny jump and he lands on the wrong edge.

    7.) She is too far up from the ice on the death spiral and this move features the typical loss of speed and flow from the change-of-hand. Almost every judge gives it +2 GOE.

    8.) Their throw Triple Flip was nice, but +3 GOE from almost every judge? So, this was as good of a throw as Savchenko/Swolkowy at their best? I don't buy it.

    If you change those grades to what I feel is appropriate, Sui/Han were overscored in the tech mark by 9 points.
    I agree, and if they do the same skate at Worlds they will likely score in the mid 120 range. I suspect there was some politics at play to push their score in a weak field and justify sending to them to Senior Worlds over the Zhangs (which I expect will now happen).

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Okay, lets be entirely fair.

    There was controversy about the ages last season when, on a Chinese website ran by the federation, the ages of about eight teams/singles slaters was posted. The ages posted revealed that none would've been eligible to compete in the events they did, and the way the ages were done both up and down suggested it was deliberate. When the ISU asked the Chinese federation about it, they said it was a transcribing error and in fact the correct ages were all in line with ISU rules. The ISU had no grounds to investigate further, but given that we've seen these reveals before prove to be true, one tends to give it a little more credibility than they would otherwise.

    But as it was never proven, it's not fair of bekalc to use it as a reason to bring them down, regardless of belief.

    Would you please give me some evidence on Sui's age issue? I know a 16 years old chinese girl looks quite different from a 16 years' old non-asia girl. Please take a consideration of Narumi TAKAHASHI, how old is this girl? When I look at Narumi, I don't think she is older than Sui. Please stop take age as the excuse for blaming.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I agree, and if they do the same skate at Worlds they will likely score in the mid 120 range. I suspect there was some politics at play to push their score in a weak field and justify sending to them to Senior Worlds over the Zhangs (which I expect will now happen).
    They'll probably only score in the low 120 range simply because PCS is measured relatively. The more teams that are obviously above them the less their PCS will be. It just happens that in this competition the last placing pair received relatively generous PCS and then most of the pairs that should beat S/H in PCS all have lackluster skates...so S/H's score ends up a bit higher than normal.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhuzhu View Post
    Would you please give me some evidence on Sui's age issue? I know a 16 years old chinese girl looks quite different from a 16 years' old non-asia girl. Please take a consideration of Narumi TAKAHASHI, how old is this girl? When I look at Narumi, I don't think she is older than Sui. Please stop take age as the excuse for blaming.
    Article on the age controversy

  10. #220
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    On another note it is a complete joke Sui & Han are sent and are skating at Junior Worlds,regardless if they go to Senior Worlds or not. They have already won the event multiple times, and it is completely unfair to real junior teams to be facing a team with 2 full seasons of Senior experience who have medaled at the GP final, won 4 Continents, and done a 200+ plus point competition at the Senior level. I thought it was wrong last year when they competed at junior Worlds. This year it is a travesty.

  11. #221
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    congrats to all medalist
    for s/h for winning, d/c for coming in 2nd and m/b for coming in 3rd

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Firstly, Sui/Han deserved to win. By including those high base value elements (which are actually undervaluled in pairs skating, I feel), they start with such sky high base value that it would take a poor skate from them AND a great skate from someone else to win. That didn't happen.

    Secondly, that they deserved to win doesn't mean they weren't overscored, or that overscoring doesn't matter.

    Here's the criteria for Skating Skills



    a) Outside the elements, it's all two foot skating. Very much stroke, stroke, stroke

    b) They're quick, but it's not effortless. It's the same thing Murakami struggled with and why her SS aren't as high as they could be even though she's fast, so you don't have that glide, that smoothness, that precision, that high skating skill technicians are able to get.

    c) There's very little in the way of great edge control that again, we see in the top teams (not here, but in general)

    So already, out of the seven criteria, they lack a strong hold with four of them. They did well in the multi-directional skating and showed a variety of speed well, and seemed pretty equal to me. To me, that's around a six. What do you think, skateflower?
    ITA, ImaginaryPogue. Sui/Han, and Kanako, alas, have this rather untidy, headache-inducing look. Is it the skating? S/H are rightly rewarded for those difficult elements, which are, however, intrinsically not to do with skating ability, but more to do with circus.
    Last edited by StellaCampo; 02-13-2012 at 11:22 AM. Reason: typo

  13. #223
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    I think there needs to be a restriction on Pairs that pre-pubescent females cannot compete. Sui has the body of a child, regardless of her age, and is much smaller physically than the adult women she competes against. This gives Sui & Han a huge edge in the throw elements since she would not have accumulated adult bone mass and would be much lighter.

  14. #224
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    All of those users who are saying that S/H's skating skills are pretty good and they have the power and speed, do you not know the difference between nice, controlled speed and hectic speed? When you see a top class skater, they do everything with speed and power but it is clean and neat. They are not a complete mess on the ice. With S/H, they are quick... OOOOKKKKKK. But it seems more like they are using speed to cover up the fact that their skating and elements are not pretty at all. Of course it takes much more of an effort and maturity to skate to a slower piece and show off your lines and your carriage.

    Well, why do that when we can just hectically get through our program and make it look so fast and fun that everyone forgets about our lack of good lines and artistry? Very smart indeed for S/H. They actually look throughout the program that they are trying to catch up to something, whether it is a particular element or the music. They dive into their side by side spins as if their life depends on it. Even on the slow parts of the music, their speed is almost the same as in the quickest part of the program. Let's give them a P/T, S/S, V/T, B/L, or especially K/T program. How will they skate to Claire de Lune? I can just imagine them FEROCIOUSLY jumping into their quad salchow (two-footed almost every time by the way) to that slow, sweet sound, hitting the air with frantic hand movements, and doing painful, over-the-top facial expressions to the last beats.

    Now, the score..... 135 Really? A judge gave them 2+ for their two-footed quad. Many of their technical elements got GOEs that only the world podium would have. V/T got 137 at euros. They were not completely clean, but do we even have to compare them? Or the fact that B/L got 63 for pcs while S/H got 59? I am hoping this is just because four continents over inflates marks because they are indeed ridiculous. S/H should get AT LEAST 7 points lower in pcs than B/L. Or how about we just put them ahead of S/S and V/T at worlds. After all, their circus tricks are way superior. The 3 flip is so much better than S/S. Their quad twist and salchow are completely clean. The jumps were very well executed (even though it looked like Sui was using all her energy to just be able to get in the air with that 3T-2T-2T.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianaSelene View Post
    All of those users who are saying that S/H's skating skills are pretty good and they have the power and speed, do you not know the difference between nice, controlled speed and hectic speed? When you see a top class skater, they do everything with speed and power but it is clean and neat. They are not a complete mess on the ice. With S/H, they are quick... OOOOKKKKKK. But it seems more like they are using speed to cover up the fact that their skating and elements are not pretty at all. Of course it takes much more of an effort and maturity to skate to a slower piece and show off your lines and your carriage.
    I have noticed that their LP has a lot of arm waving and frantic upper body movements to draw your eyes away from they legs and feet. All that frantic upper body movement fairly screams “Look HERE!” and you don’t notice their weak stroking that doesn’t matching, the lack of leg lines, stretch or good posture. In the SP, they are seldom skating side by side, and have a lot of cutesy movements in and around one another which disguises the lack of connection and match in these two. He is so small that the moment she grows, or even the weight gain when she hits puberty will finish them off.

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