Pairs Long Program 2:00 PM EST

[Ilvskating]

????

Even BoP said Sui & Han deserved to win. Overscoring never does anyone any real favors in the long run.

I thought it was clear that I was just trying to be sarcastic:( I had edited my post to trne it down a bit but I must have overdone it.

I'm very impressed by Sui/Han and I believe they deserve every point they earned. I was not happy that people nit-pick Sui/Han instead of just accept that they did a great job there under difficult conditions. So the post. My bad for being not clear.

I can't figure out how on earth could it possible that Sui rotated a full turn before Han released her. I re-watched the vedio several times and it turned out the accusiion is completely un-grounded and ignorant. First of all, the fact: count the rotations from the moment she left his hands, 4 full-rotations exactly, no moreno less. Secondly, from a theoretical point of view, it was practically impossible for her to turn a full turn before being released, not even half a turn. Han held her with both hands at her waist, pang-tong-fan, show me how it would be possible for her to turn with his hands holding her, ----the only possibility is that Han's arms are made of rubber bands that would be able to wrap around her like snake and rebound back like spring when releasing her--that's the picture I get when reading your No.1. She might have a tiny little bit two-foot it, but it appears a scratch, if any, rather than two-foot landing. I see a lot of factors for positive GOE on the 4Sth, carry-entry for the throw, great speed in and out, excellent body postures and positions in the air and on the landing, strong beautiful landing positions, great height and distance, why on earth they should not get positive GOE even if there was a slightly scratch of the ice? It was better than the majority of 3Sth that got positive GOEs.
I don't have time to comment on the whole conprehensive list, but I just think when people take that much of their time scrutinize a specific pair, there might be issues other than how the skaters skated/being judged

[skateflower]

I thought it was clear that I was just trying to be sarcastic
... but I just think when people take that much of their time scrutinize a specific pair, there might be issues other than how the skaters skated/being judged

I think most, if not everybody knows that you're being sarcastic. I think the big issue to many of the naysayers is that they could never accept the possibility of sui/han becoming no. 1 one day. It is important for them to knock off these two kids now. This is crazy. This is a just a message board. Has any ISU judge ever come here for guidance?

'They can be no. 2 but no, no way they shoud be no.1 because ? All the nit-picking is just smoke and mirrors. People are not stupid.

[ImaginaryPogue]

I don't have time to comment on the whole conprehensive list, but I just think when people take that much of their time scrutinize a specific pair, there might be issues other than how the skaters skated/being judged

Then you should read more of Blades posts. Trust me. He does that to a lot of skaters. The thing is, nitpicking is what GOE is about. It's what COP is about. For you to say "just accept that they did a great job under difficult conditions" suggests that you can't handle an opinion that doesn't agree with yours. They did a terrific job with some aspects of the skating. Other aspects they didn't do a great job with. I don't see why you should dictate how another should respond, or cast aspersions on opinions that don't equal yours.

For me, the SS argument is something I brought up because Skating Skills is something I truly admire, and they're not at that level.

[dorispulaski]

A concern that the rules on GOE and levels be correctly applied? That would explain the list

From ISU Communication 1672, Let's look at these points one by one, according to the rules:

1.) The Quad Salchow was overscored. She has already done a full turn by the time he releases her and it was a blatantly two-footed landing. Not one of the biggest throws out there either, for modern pairs skating.

In the Jump or Throw Jump section, GOE:

"Starting or landing on two feet in a jump -2"

The question of how far she prerotated, and whether she did at least 3 3/4 full rotations would determine whether it is a quad throw or a triple throw for the purpose of setting levels. I'm having trouble seeing that much prerotation, but the GOE should definitely not be positive.

2.) The side-by-side 3Toe-2Toe-2Toe was a disgrace. First of all, both of her 2Toe's were underrotated and didn't get called. Second of all, this should have been -2 GOE across the board for such small, shaky jumps and horrendous destruction of unison.

If the 2Toes were underrotated, they should have been called 1Toes.

But in any case, bad unison on jumps is a GOE of -1 to -3 for bad unison
and -1 to -3 for skaters far apart during jumps. (which they were by the end of the sequence)

This was just bad judging IMO

So BoP's claim that the GOE should be -2 is justified, since at least -1 each.

3.) The Quad Twist again featured her doing a full turn before he fully releases and then she lands on his shoulder, almost like a sack of potatoes. One judge thought that was worthy of +3 GOE.

According to the document,
"Catch assisted by the man's shoulder -1 to -2"

The prerotation issue tells you whether it should be a 3Twist or a 4Twist. Again, I'm having a hard time seeing this prerotation.

But giving it +3 was pretty egregiously bad. It is not like 4Tw haven't been done before under COP, including Obertas & Slavnov, who got dinged regularly for chest and shoulder crashy twists in the 2004 to 2006 time frame.

4.) The side-by-side spin lost unison and became overly separated. Some judges think that is worthy of a +2 GOE. It should have been -1.

"No unison, too big distance between partners -1 to -3"

So -1 is pretty reasonable.

5.) She very noticeably loses balance and position on the first lift but there is no penalty, just +GOE yet again in fact.

"Poor positions in the air or on landing" -1 to -3. Again -1 would be reasonable.

I'm not crazy about most of their lifts to tell the truth. They are supposed to go up and come down smoothly. They don't.

6.) Positive GOE across the board for the 2Axels, in which she does a tiny jump and he lands on the wrong edge.

"Weak landing (bad pos./wrong edge/scratching etc)" is -1 to -2

"Poor speed, height, distance, air position" is also -1 to -2

Yes, he's on the wrong edge, and his jump is significantly bigger than hers.

7.) She is too far up from the ice on the death spiral and this move features the typical loss of speed and flow from the change-of-hand. Almost every judge gives it +2 GOE.

This doesn't bother me all that much; all COP death spirals look like crap to me.

8.) Their throw Triple Flip was nice, but +3 GOE from almost every judge? So, this was as good of a throw as Savchenko/Swolkowy at their best? I don't buy it.

This is his weakest argument. Sui & Han don't have to be as good as S&S, they just have to meet the criteria for +3 GOE.

If you change those grades to what I feel is appropriate, Sui/Han were overscored in the tech mark by 9 points.

Maybe not 9 points, but definitely some overscoring going on.

Here's the video, if you would like to check these points

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOom45KXw70

[DianaSelene]

A concern that the rules on GOE and levels be correctly applied? That would explain the list

From ISU Communication 1672, Let's look at these points one by one, according to the rules:




In the Jump or Throw Jump section, GOE:

"Starting or landing on two feet in a jump -2"

The question of how far she prerotated, and whether she did at least 3 3/4 full rotations would determine whether it is a quad throw or a triple throw for the purpose of setting levels. I'm having trouble seeing that much prerotation, but the GOE should definitely not be positive.




If the 2Toes were underrotated, they should have been called 1Toes.

But in any case, bad unison on jumps is a GOE of -1 to -3 for bad unison
and -1 to -3 for skaters far apart during jumps. (which they were by the end of the sequence)

This was just bad judging IMO

So BoP's claim that the GOE should be -2 is justified, since at least -1 each.



According to the document,
"Catch assisted by the man's shoulder -1 to -2"

The prerotation issue tells you whether it should be a 3Twist or a 4Twist. Again, I'm having a hard time seeing this prerotation.

But giving it +3 was pretty egregiously bad. It is not like 4Tw haven't been done before under COP, including Obertas & Slavnov, who got dinged regularly for chest and shoulder crashy twists in the 2004 to 2006 time frame.


"No unison, too big distance between partners -1 to -3"

So -1 is pretty reasonable.



"Poor positions in the air or on landing" -1 to -3. Again -1 would be reasonable.

I'm not crazy about most of their lifts to tell the truth. They are supposed to go up and come down smoothly. They don't.



"Weak landing (bad pos./wrong edge/scratching etc)" is -1 to -2

"Poor speed, height, distance, air position" is also -1 to -2

Yes, he's on the wrong edge, and his jump is significantly bigger than hers.



This doesn't bother me all that much; all COP death spirals look like crap to me.



This is his weakest argument. Sui & Han don't have to be as good as S&S, they just have to meet the criteria for +3 GOE.




Maybe not 9 points, but definitely some overscoring going on.

Here's the video, if you would like to check these points

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOom45KXw70

A wonderful, knowledgeable breakdown. Thanks!

[yousunny]

According to ISU Communication 1672, some errors are for which final GOE must be in the minuses, while for others, final GOE is
not restricted. So let's go through the program again.

In the Jump or Throw Jump section, GOE:

"Starting or landing on two feet in a jump -2"

4S Th
Two feet landing is a must-be-minus error (GOE-2). But for Sui/Han's throw 4S, most judges consider it a weaklanding/scratching (-1 to -2). Such minus GOEs can be compensated by plus GOEs. So +1, 0,-1, even +2 are reasonable. Because their throw has 1. difficult entry, 2. good air position of lady, 3. good height,distance, speed, 4. matching to music, 5. good position of man on release. Although a little bit scratching on landing, it still seems effortless.

I don't want to comment on the number of revolutions. The three experts of technical panel considered it a fully rotated throw quad jump. They know better than us.

But in any case, bad unison on jumps is a GOE of -1 to -3 for bad unison
and -1 to -3 for skaters far apart during jumps. (which they were by the end of the sequence)

SBS jump combination
Note that: it says no unison will lead to a -1 to -3. Actually Sui/han has pretty good unison for this element. And they're close to each other. They matches the music quite well. They have good extension.
Their problem is lacking of speed and flow, which is a ”could be +GOE“ error.

According to the document,
"Catch assisted by the man's shoulder -1 to -2"

Twist lift

Another "could be +GOE" error. 7 out of 9 judges gave them +2. Considering that 7 out of 9 judges gave their 3FTH +3. Sui/Han got deduction for the weak catch.

"No unison, too big distance between partners -1 to -3"
So -1 is pretty reasonable.

SBS spin
Again, their unison and distance is good, although not as exceptional as their throws. They didn't make any mistake here. Their GOEs range from 0 to 2 depending on how judges looking at their position and unison.
Note that: For side by side jumps/spins, only no unison, too bigdistance receive deductions. Good unison and close distance in all phases will get Plus GOEs. Sui /Han's unison and distance on sbs elements can never be called no unison or too big in this competition, though you can say the unison is not good enough.


[QUOTE]"Poor positions in the air or on landing" -1 to -3. Again -1 would be reasonable.[QUOTE]

The 1st lift has a minor mistake. -1 is reasonable. And Sui/Han receives less GOE than the other two lifts.

"Weak landing (bad pos./wrong edge/scratching etc)" is -1 to -2

"Poor speed, height, distance, air position" is also -1 to -2

Yes, he's on the wrong edge, and his jump is significantly bigger than hers.

SBS solo jump
Where did you see those mistakes? I don't understand. This SBS jump is small, but with good flow, extension, and unison. I would give them +1,+2 as 9 out of 9 judges did.

She is too far up from the ice on the death spiral and this move features the typical loss of speed and flow from the change-of-hand. Almost every judge gives it +2 GOE.

Outside Death Spirals – head should not be higher than her skating knee and bodyline between knee of skating leg and head should be flat or shallow arch.

Her position perfectly meets the criteria. Make sure you know the difference between outsie/inside death spirals.

They didn't slow down after hand-change. Go check the video.

By the way: They only need to hit 4 out of 8 GOE bullets to get +2. Otherwise, they will get +3 across the board

[Ilvskating]

A concern that the rules on GOE and levels be correctly applied? That would explain the list

From ISU Communication 1672, Let's look at these points one by one, according to the rules:




In the Jump or Throw Jump section, GOE:

"Starting or landing on two feet in a jump -2"

The question of how far she prerotated, and whether she did at least 3 3/4 full rotations would determine whether it is a quad throw or a triple throw for the purpose of setting levels. I'm having trouble seeing that much prerotation, but the GOE should definitely not be positive.




If the 2Toes were underrotated, they should have been called 1Toes.

But in any case, bad unison on jumps is a GOE of -1 to -3 for bad unison
and -1 to -3 for skaters far apart during jumps. (which they were by the end of the sequence)

This was just bad judging IMO

So BoP's claim that the GOE should be -2 is justified, since at least -1 each.



According to the document,
"Catch assisted by the man's shoulder -1 to -2"

The prerotation issue tells you whether it should be a 3Twist or a 4Twist. Again, I'm having a hard time seeing this prerotation.

But giving it +3 was pretty egregiously bad. It is not like 4Tw haven't been done before under COP, including Obertas & Slavnov, who got dinged regularly for chest and shoulder crashy twists in the 2004 to 2006 time frame.


"No unison, too big distance between partners -1 to -3"

So -1 is pretty reasonable.



"Poor positions in the air or on landing" -1 to -3. Again -1 would be reasonable.

I'm not crazy about most of their lifts to tell the truth. They are supposed to go up and come down smoothly. They don't.



"Weak landing (bad pos./wrong edge/scratching etc)" is -1 to -2

"Poor speed, height, distance, air position" is also -1 to -2

Yes, he's on the wrong edge, and his jump is significantly bigger than hers.



This doesn't bother me all that much; all COP death spirals look like crap to me.



This is his weakest argument. Sui & Han don't have to be as good as S&S, they just have to meet the criteria for +3 GOE.




Maybe not 9 points, but definitely some overscoring going on.

Here's the video, if you would like to check these points

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOom45KXw70

Hi dorispulaski, I really like the way you discuss this. That's the intelligent and objective way to see if GOE rules are followed. To be honest, I don't care any of the current pair enough to follow the ever changing rules as I did before, but the last time I checked it was a combination of plus and minus of all factors that determine the final GOE if I remember it correctly, except for falls. I may not agree with you on all aspects, but that doesn't matter, we all just express our own opinions based on our understanding of COP. Even judges need to attend seminars to know how to apply the rules correctly, I assume that no many of us paid to go to one of those. So it's perfectly fine that we have different takes on a performance. Just a couple of examples of my take:
They got negtive GOE on the 4Sth, and considering all the factors it seems not far from correct. There is only one judge giving them +2, which is not correct, I think the maximum goe that throw could get is + 1 (1) , and I think 0 (2) is acceptable, -1 (5) is fine, and -2 (1) is a bit too harsh. I was trying to see if the judge given them +2 had consistently giving them high GOE on all the element, and it doesn't seem that was the case, so it could be a matter of angles. So this element was basically marked ok.
The 3T-2T-2T, she didn't ur any of the 2T from the vedio, I re-watched it several times. They got negative GOE again to reflect the unison and distant problems.
For the 4Twist, +3 (1) is definitely wrong, but IMO it is still possible to get some positive GOE.
The 2A, did he land on the wrong edge? It looks like right to me, I can't see the wiggle of edge, looks like good BO to me, I might be wrong as I'm looking at small screen.

I can't believe I got myself into this. For the record, S/H is not even my favourite pair. I like their fire, flair and big elements, but they are still a bit messy. I don't have one right now. I was really excited for V/T but the excitement faded this season. I still like them, and I start like S/S since their Out of Africa.

OT, I really feel that it is a great feeling to be able to enjoy whoever skated the best and be happy for them. It's great to have a passion for one's favourite skaters, but I think hating one's favourite's rival is poisonous.

[mousepotato]

A concern that the rules on GOE and levels be correctly applied? That would explain the list

From ISU Communication 1672, Let's look at these points one by one, according to the rules:




In the Jump or Throw Jump section, GOE:

"Starting or landing on two feet in a jump -2"

The question of how far she prerotated, and whether she did at least 3 3/4 full rotations would determine whether it is a quad throw or a triple throw for the purpose of setting levels. I'm having trouble seeing that much prerotation, but the GOE should definitely not be positive.




If the 2Toes were underrotated, they should have been called 1Toes.

But in any case, bad unison on jumps is a GOE of -1 to -3 for bad unison
and -1 to -3 for skaters far apart during jumps. (which they were by the end of the sequence)

This was just bad judging IMO

So BoP's claim that the GOE should be -2 is justified, since at least -1 each.



According to the document,
"Catch assisted by the man's shoulder -1 to -2"

The prerotation issue tells you whether it should be a 3Twist or a 4Twist. Again, I'm having a hard time seeing this prerotation.

But giving it +3 was pretty egregiously bad. It is not like 4Tw haven't been done before under COP, including Obertas & Slavnov, who got dinged regularly for chest and shoulder crashy twists in the 2004 to 2006 time frame.


"No unison, too big distance between partners -1 to -3"

So -1 is pretty reasonable.



"Poor positions in the air or on landing" -1 to -3. Again -1 would be reasonable.

I'm not crazy about most of their lifts to tell the truth. They are supposed to go up and come down smoothly. They don't.



"Weak landing (bad pos./wrong edge/scratching etc)" is -1 to -2

"Poor speed, height, distance, air position" is also -1 to -2

Yes, he's on the wrong edge, and his jump is significantly bigger than hers.



This doesn't bother me all that much; all COP death spirals look like crap to me.



This is his weakest argument. Sui & Han don't have to be as good as S&S, they just have to meet the criteria for +3 GOE.




Maybe not 9 points, but definitely some overscoring going on.

Here's the video, if you would like to check these points

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOom45KXw70

All of the points were spot on. If they were competing against the top 4 or 5 in the world their score would have been down about 10-15 points. The worse error on the part of the judges was the quad twist. She didn't just hit his chest on the way down, she landed horizontilly on his shoulder.

[Blades of Passion]

What a nice reply doris. These are the things I don't agree with:

This doesn't bother me all that much; all COP death spirals look like crap to me.

Just because everyone is performing an element poorly doesn't mean we should look the other way. It's extremely important to use the GOE scores correctly or else they becoming meaningless and choreographic choices become meaningless.

If judges actually gave these crappy death spirals 0 GOE or -GOE, then some pair teams would instead choose to execute a lower level death spiral and go for +GOE instead of trying to go for a higher level and getting 0 or -GOE. Thus, we would see more variety and more quality.

Sui & Han don't have to be as good as S&S, they just have to meet the criteria for +3 GOE.

The criteria are not set-in-stone. They are guidelines.

The real point I'm trying to make is that the scoring system is failing if someone clearly executes an element better than someone else and the GOE is the same. Sui & Han do need to be as good as S&S with their throw Triple Flip to deserve that +3, otherwise the judging is inaccurate.

[skateflower]

What a nice reply doris. These are ththings I don't agree with:


need to be as good as S&S with their throw Triple Flip to deserve that +3, otherwise the judging is inaccurate.

They're better than S&S in throw Triple Flip element IMHO. The height was the same. Their throw covers better distance. Sui has much better ride-out. The variation in her hand gesture does not hurt. Now we're down the silly argument about male partner's 'technique'. Well both male partners have the same technique. So?
If S&S's throw triple flip deserves +2, I see no reason Sui & Han should not get +3. It's silly to take somebody's agenda-driven-analysis seriously no matter how serious they want to sound.

[yousunny]

If judges actually gave these crappy death spirals 0 GOE or -GOE, then some pair teams would instead choose to execute a lower level death spiral and go for +GOE instead of trying to go for a higher level and getting 0 or -GOE. Thus, we would see more variety and more quality.

I want to post this definition of outside edge death spiral for you.

Outside Death Spirals – head should not be higher than her skating knee and bodyline between knee of skating leg and head should be flat or shallow arch.

You should check the video. Sui's position exactly meets the criteria.

Sui & Han do need to be as good as S&S with their throw Triple Flip to deserve that +3, otherwise the judging is inaccurate.

Sui/Han's 3FTH at least meets 7/8 criteria for throw jump. Actually they only need to fulfill 6 bullets to get +3 GOE.
1) difficult entry
3) good air position of lady
4) good extension on landing / creative exit
5) good speed, height, distance
6) good control and flow on the landing
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

[Blades of Passion]

Oh, wow, I missed this:

I think there needs to be a restriction on Pairs that pre-pubescent females cannot compete. Sui has the body of a child, regardless of her age, and is much smaller physically than the adult women she competes against. This gives Sui & Han a huge edge in the throw elements since she would not have accumulated adult bone mass and would be much lighter.

You do realize that a small (but not anomalous) percentage of women always remain tiny, right? You frequently make degrading statements about petite skaters and it comes off as you being jealous of that body type. This latest one is not only unfair to those women but also unfair to anyone in general who might be told they are not allowed to compete as a result of the way they were born. The idea you are purporting here is along the lines of Nazism.

If you had said the age restriction for all Senior competitions should be increased that would be one thing, but you specifically said "regardless of age". Some people simply have genetically better bodies for certain sports and that's the way it goes.

Now, it's really unfair and wrong if Sui Wenjing is actually only 14 years old and China has lied about her age, but aside from a cut-off age what else would you expect? If we want to make it a rule that girls must submit proof of their pubescence for pairs then it would be only fair to make it a rule in singles and dance as well. Why just girls, though? It should be made a rule for boys as well. It's simply not fair that a skinnier frame is able to rotate jumps better!

No, that would be ridiculous. I don't mind extreme ideas, and in theory there is actually some kind of merit to it, but we have no way of knowing exactly how someone's body will change. Plus, people keep growing into their early/mid 20's. Not to mention that in general it simply becomes harder and harder to maintain perfect athletic condition as you get older. We are always changing. [ *** Edit by Mathman: skater's privacy concern *** ]

Sui/Han's 3FTH at least meets 7/8 criteria for throw jump. Actually they only need to fulfill 6 bullets to get +3 GOE.

You clearly did not listen to what I said.

They're better than S&S in throw Triple Flip element IMHO. The height was the same. Their throw covers better distance.

Yeah, that's simply false. Their throw Triple Flip does NOT achieve the same height. Sui's reach feet at lower when placed next to Han's body in comparison to S/S, and Szolkowy is FAR taller than Han to begin with. You can clearly also see how much more air is left before reaching ice by the time Savchenko has completely finished the rotations as well. Sui&Han do get better distance and someone mentioned superior ride-out, which was also very good in this case. However, there was a problem with the throw I've not yet mentioned and that is Sui's back bending forward on the landing. A jump should ideally be landed with a completely straight back.

Using S/S as an example was actually not ideal, that just suddenly came to mind because they do the throw Flip, instead the best throws of Shen&Zhao should be the comparison. The best in the business is what deserves +3 and if someone isn't executing an element that well, or very close to it, then a +3 is not deserved. As I said, the judging system becomes false and inaccurate if that were not the case. If skater A does an element better than skater B, and yet they receive the same score for it, then skater A isn't getting the extra credit they deserve. And that is supposed to be what CoP is all about - giving every little move an exact amount of credit based upon how well it was executed.

[bekalc]

I think most, if not everybody knows that you're being sarcastic. I think the big issue to many of the naysayers is that they could never accept the possibility of sui/han becoming no. 1 one day. It is important for them to knock off these two kids now. This is crazy. This is a just a message board. Has any ISU judge ever come here for guidance?

'They can be no. 2 but no, no way they shoud be no.1 because ? All the nit-picking is just smoke and mirrors. People are not stupid.

Nobody said they couldn't accept Sui/Han potentially being no.1 someday. The accepted S/Z didn't they. But we won't accept Sui/Han without SIGNIFICANT improvements in their basics. Its not asking to much that pairs skaters have good basic skating skills/good unison.. Those are the very basics. If they get marks in the 135s why should they improve these things?

And people don't have to accept right now their marks which give them very good scores for skating skills, which they don't have.

This is more about what good pairs skating is suppose to be. And once again if the sport ignores good basics and puts quad throws/twists and cutseyness above that its dangerous for the development of the sport. People would mind their wins less if they were appropriately scored in PCS for skating skills. Plenty of teams have been completely robbed of what they are better at than Sui/Han. The way the Russian S/K and the Japanese team T/T have been scored in PCS in Juniors over Sui/Han is a travesty of epic proportions. Both teams are better skaters and deserve higher PCS at least in Skating skills than they were getting.

The Russians are going to be having debut internationally a very talented young team in the Russian school. And of course they won't get recognized for the things they do better than Sui/Han

If Sui/Han just won their competitions based on TES it would be one thing...For the record for me I'm not particularly a fan of American school of pairs skating at all. I may end up liking M/B a lot. I prefer the Russian school and S/S. T/T are a gorgeous team and I pray that they can get their jumps sorted out because if they CAN. They are just beautiful. I adore them.

Its not at all about nationality and more about what I like in pairs skating. I'm sorry but with two gorgeous teams on top in the likes of V/T and S/S who have it all in terms of big elements and gorgeous basic skating. K/S too who are very good. And the long tradition of pairs skating especially from the Russians in terms of great basic skating skills and unison being the foundation. I will not accept any less.

[sky_fly20]

The Russians are going to be having debut internationally a very talented young team in the Russian school. And of course they won't get recognized for the things they do better than Sui/Han



Its not at all about nationality and more about what I like in pairs skating. I'm sorry but with two gorgeous teams on top in the likes of V/T and S/S who have it all in terms of big elements and gorgeous basic skating. K/S too who are very good. And the long tradition of pairs skating especially from the Russians in terms of great basic skating skills and unison being the foundation. I will not accept any less.

sad to say, but this is true they are rewarding now " tricks" and will even give you a high basis for PCS
the Rus Fed even address this. basic skating is the foundation. this will be the third junior pairs for S/H and I know D/D are of disadvantage
but it will still break my heart how they will be scored at junior worlds

[dorispulaski]

I'm guessing Sui & Han will be at senior Worlds.

They are on the current entry list for Junior Worlds, but I wonder whether they will go:

http://www.isuresults.com/events/cat00007569.htm

8 Meiyi LI / Bo JIANG CHN 6
9 Wenjing SUI / Cong HAN CHN 6 D
10 Xiaoyu YU / Yang JIN CHN 6
Cheng PENG / Tianci ZHANG CHN 6 S

However Peng & Zhang are there to be substitutes, should S&H go to Sr. Worlds instead.