Was Czisny's Omission From The U.S. Team for The 4CC's A Snub?

A problem with 4CC's is the timing of the Canadian and US National Championships, and the Olympics.

For a skater to go to US nationals, 4CC's, and the Olympics, there is almost no training time at home between Nationals and Olympics, and that would not be an ideal training environment, I think.

Skipping Alissa in favor of the 3rd and 4th place finisher is nowhere near as outrageous as skipping Armin for Dudbush, the 13th place finisher. But both snubs deserved to be mentioned together, as they illustrate just how arbitrary, nonsensical and opaque the USFS selection process is.

dorispulaski said:

A problem with 4CC's is the timing of the Canadian and US National Championships, and the Olympics.

For a skater to go to US nationals, 4CC's, and the Olympics, there is almost no training time at home between Nationals and Olympics, and that would not be an ideal training environment, I think.

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Yes I agree and I remember we had discussed about it in the Olympic Season. Having to change continents also is a factor. Euros is at least 3 weeks distance from Olys, and they dont travel that much.

That's OK. The prize of the World Team Trophy is more then either Europeans or 4CC.
Back to Alissa. If she doesn't do well at Worlds, she may get passed over for the WTT ..... again.

SkateFiguring said:

Both Alissa and Jeremy were there to be with their coaches. Melisa Bulanhagui and Armin, who trains there, were there as well.

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Armin Mahbanoozadeh was not in Colorado Springs during Four Continents.

Mathman said:

The question isn't whether the USFSA did Alissa a favor by not sending her, or whether it was a "smart move."

The question is, did the USFSA follow its own selection rules.

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I believe there was a new selection policy in place for 2012 Four Continents but it is not available online for the public to view at this time (not sure if the skaters/coaches have access to it, but I would hope they do).

PolymerBob said:

Back to Alissa. If she doesn't do well at Worlds, she may get passed over for the WTT ..... again.

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I think the USFSA must send the two top-ranked men and ladies in the ISU ranking system.

Mathman said:

I think the USFSA must send the two top-ranked men and ladies in the ISU ranking system.

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This. The only real question, as I understand it, is whether they will need to send the two with the current highest world ranking (Alissa/Mirai) or the two with the highest season ranking (Alissa/Ashley).

Mathman said:

Hersh seems to be way more upset about this than Alissa is. The most he could coax out of her was "I was shocked," while Jason contributed "They never gave me an explanation."

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Well, FWIW, "shocked" tells me she absolutely expected to be chosen for 4CCs, but for some reason was not chosen this time.

"They never gave me an explanation" tells me one of two things: that either Team Czisny never asked for one, or USFS never responded to a request from Team Czisny for one.

I think at the very least the interested parties are owed an explanation- maybe the public doesn't need to know the exact reason but if you say nothing, that's when journalists like Hersh are allowed to speculate and this can influence public opinion.

The USFSA must be breathing a sigh of relief that Caroline Zhang performed so well at Four Continents. Still, they handled the whole situation clumsily. Why go to the trouble of ballyhooing a new set of selection criteria, only to ignore it the first time out?

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I actually think they made the RIGHT decision (at least on the ladies' side) in skipping Czisny in favor of Zawadzki and Zhang. I'm a bit surprised it's turned out to be such a big deal because I always thought Czisny never really did well at 4CC and would appreciate the rest between Nationals and Worlds. She competed on the GP and the GPF last fall, and looked like she needed a break after Nationals, anyway. For some reason I didn't really think it would be to her benefit to compete at 4CC. That said, if it's true she wanted to go, she should have at least gotten a clear explanation as to why she wasn't selected.

I think it was the right call though. If Czisny HAD to be sent at the expense at one of the other skaters, Zawadzki rather than Zhang would probably the one to skip...

R.D. said:

I actually think they made the RIGHT decision (at least on the ladies' side) in skipping Czisny in favor of Zawadzki and Zhang.

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I think that is the crux of the whole discussion. Should the USFSA committee meet and do their best to come up with an ad hoc decision that turns out RIGHT?

Or should they formulate a set of official rules and guidelines, broadcast to all interested parties, and then follow them right or wrong.

I guess i have served on too many committees to have an unbiased opinion about them

R.D. said:

I think it was the right call though. If Czisny HAD to be sent at the expense at one of the other skaters, Zawadzki rather than Zhang would probably the one to skip...

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Except then Czisny would have gotten two ISU championship assignments, Zhang one, and Zawadzki zero (unless they sent her back to Junior Worlds).

I think what they were probably thinking is "National champ gets offered both championships. Between the two events we have three more ladies slots. Let's spread them among the next three finishers from Nationals, with the most prestigious one going to the silver medalist."

(I offer no opinion on what was the "right" way to assign those slots)

gkelly said:

I think what they were probably thinking is "National champ gets offered both championships. Between the two events we have three more ladies slots. Let's spread them among the next three finishers from Nationals, with the most prestigious one going to the silver medalist."

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If this is their "thinking," then why not say so in the published rules? Why say things like, for Four Continents we will choose the person that has the strongest record in the last two Nationals, last years Worlds and Jr. Worlds and 4CC, and the Grand Prix Final?

They could easily put in a line about, the choice will be made in consideration of the mission of the International Committee, which says that we will try to win as many medals as possible in the long run by strategically developing our young prospects and giving them international exposure, etc.

This is a laudatory goal for the federation. However, instead they have always treated these spots as rewards to be earned by the skaters in the field of play. This really does seem to be an about face on the part of the USFSA and it has caught people by surprise.

Change is good. Just tell people what the new rules are before you spring them on the skaters unawares.

Haven't read whole thread but glad they decided to give Alissa a rest to focus on worlds. They needed to send the National Champion and give Zhang and Zawadzki international opportunity. Not terrible and with good results. Too bad about Richard. But he will come back. Caroline has practically risen from the dead in two years, so, Richard lives to skate another day.

I wish Evan would come back! I think he still can do better than any us man we have.

i thought i read in the IFS magazine where Alissa was cover girl,for this year. that alissa didn't decide on 4cc this year. she wanted to wait and see what she did at gp final,

so this dustup regarding alissa seems off, but if she wants to go i understand.

i see why zhang, agnes, but i am with you regarding richard dornbush. he finished low at short program, however decent in long, maybe they thought he could forget his screw up.

On second thought, I changed my mind. The USFSA is OK on this.

The history and tradition that the skaters have learned to rely on is that the top finishers at nationals have automatically earned the right to go to worlds. There are almost no exception to this rule ever, other than in the case of injury to dominant skaters.

There is no such long-standing tradition for Four Continents. If there is any "history" to be consulted, it is that the top skaters don't want to do the event anyway, so it is a question of finding a next-to-best skater who will accept the assignment. Although this has changed recently, there is nothing to prevent the USFSA from using this event to promote promising younger athletes and to jockey for position for next years Grand Prix, etc., while still following the traditional procedure for Worlds.

Mathman said:

On second thought, I changed my mind. The USFSA is OK on this.

The history and tradition that the skaters have learned to rely on is that the top finishers at nationals have automatically earned the right to go to worlds. There are almost no exception to this rule ever, other than in the case of injury to dominant skaters.

There is no such long-standing tradition for Four Continents. If there is any "history" to be consulted, it is that the top skaters don't want to do the event anyway, so it is a question of finding a next-to-best skater who will accept the assignment. Although this has changed recently, there is nothing to prevent the USFSA from using this event to promote promising younger athletes and to jockey for position for next years Grand Prix, etc., while still following the traditional procedure for Worlds.

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Perfectly stated. ITA.

Mathman said:

On second thought, I changed my mind. The USFSA is OK on this.

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Mathman - you're rocking my world! Letting the mucky mucks at the USFSA play fast and loose with their own rules - that's the kind of thing I might come up with!

There were two constants I thought I could depend on:

- MM thinks jumps with falls should have no value
- MM thinks the USFSA should have clear unambiguous rules about team selection and follow them

Now what am I to believe?

Precedent and tradition do not equal what is in the rules and bylaws. The USFSA is a private organization that has latitude to do whatever it wants. I'm quite OK with any USFSA methodology that says: "National Champion gets to exercise option of going to Worlds (or 4CC, or Olympics), but we pick all the other spots for all competitions." I simply don't have a problem with using judgment and taking into account current state and trend of each skater's skating as part of the selection process. That's what managers in private enterprises get paid to do, also to take the consequences of their choices.

I flatly distrust people who simplify these sorts of decisions down to only numbers at a single competition. Per Albert Einstein "Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts." To me the reliance on numbers to exclusion of all else seems a way of abdicating decision-making responsibility. As for "fairness"--well if skaters are at this level in their careers, they should know that sometimes they don't get what they want or feel they deserve. There's still a large degree of subjectivity in the sport regardless of scoring system. A skater who can't live with ambiguity and uncertainty and possible "unfairness" should get out early and head for the track stadium or the swimming pool or tennis court.

I don't know whether Alissa feels snubbed or not. However, much as I love her to pieces (and have been following her career since I first saw her at 8 years old in Ohio), the USFSA could throw it right back at her, if she pressed them for an explanation, and say "We want to try somebody else right now. Your GPF, US Nationals, and (whatever that other outing was) were troubling, regardless of your 2nd place finish at Nationals. And you didn't live up to expectations at last year's 4CC. We need you to take a break and prepare for Worlds which is reward enough for you this season." IMO, she has no right to feel snubbed. I am hoping that this is Phil Hersh stirring up controversy where none really exists.

It's interesting Alissa has elected to compete at Challenge Cup in The Hague! She must have really wanted another competition before Worlds, maybe she's still trying to shake off that GPF outing? She must have really been a bit frustrated not getting 4CC...
Like people in the Challenge Cup thread I wonder how this whole travelling + jet lag thing will pan out. I do wonder if she'll stay in Europe until Worlds after Challenge Cup but how likely is that? I know a couple ice rinks around here where, during school hours, you're the only skater on the ice if they're looking for ice time ;-)

While looking up more information about USFSA policies, I found this:

Skaters who choose to participate (in international collegiate events) would receive a Team USA warm up jacket, but would have to to purchase the pants.

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!!!Is this real policy or you made it up? Cause I can actually believe it quoted like that