Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

[hurrah]

I don't need a poll to know that Daisuke is hot!

[seniorita]

Are you Patrick's promoter? Look, if Patrick skates to his potential at the Olympics, he's likely to get gold whether he's the judge's favorite or not, right?
But if he wins wearing the judges favorites image, it will negatively impact his value as a product. That's all I'm trying to point out.

huh? Plushenko was the judges favorite and made money after SLC, Torino, Vancouver etc etc. Yagudin was certabily a judge favorite. Wasnt Kwan also judges favorite lady? I dont know why Patrick shouldnt. And also Daisuke is some years older, you dont know the market value of Chan when he hits Daisuke's age and status. Plus Japan has a different market I suppose.
Bottom line, it is not a skaters concern how he is marked by judges.

[hurrah]

huh? Plushenko was the judges favorite and made money after SLC, Torino, Vancouver etc etc. Yagudin was certabily a judge favorite. Wasnt Kwan also judges favorite lady? I dont know why Patrick shouldnt. And also Daisuke is some years older, you dont know the market value of Chan when he hits Daisuke's age and status. Plus Japan has a different market I suppose.
Bottom line, it is not a skaters concern how he is marked by judges.

These skaters whom you mention were the favorites going into a competition, for sure, but their performances hadn't been slashed apart on figure skating boards for getting high scores for a performance with multiple falls /a nonfall, etc. Also, and I'm really curious to know this. Did skating boards like fsuniverse and golden skate exist during their time? Since when have figure skating boards been active?

[seniorita]

If you mean during Plush/ Yag /Kwan era , yes they did. I think fsu had another name at first. And there were some boards who have disappeared now.

[hurrah]

I'm really interested to know the impact of figure skating boards on figure skater/figure skating popularity. I only joined before Vancouver Oly and I can tell you that what I read definitely made a difference re: my perception of certain skaters. Re: Patrick, my image of him is that he has extraordinary skating skills, and his Federation recognizes this talent and have lobbied effectively so that he's almost guaranteed a win however he skates that day. What I have seen in competition confirms what I have eked from reading this board, and that doesn't make me want to be his fan. Nevertheless, I can see that he is a very nice person so I really don't blame him personally when he gets awarded for a multiple fall performance. But again, gaining this perception does not make me want to be his fan. I think that's just human nature.
Anyway, getting back to the topic, I don't need CoP to tell me that Dai is an artist on the ice like no one else.

[spikydurian]

I'm really interested to know the impact of figure skating boards on figure skater/figure skating popularity. I only joined before Vancouver Oly and I can tell you that what I read definitely made a difference re: my perception of certain skaters. Re: Patrick, my image of him is that he has extraordinary skating skills, and his Federation recognizes this talent and have lobbied effectively so that he's almost guaranteed a win however he skates that day. What I have seen in competition confirms what I have eked from reading this board, and that doesn't make me want to be his fan. Nevertheless, I can see that he is a very nice person so I really don't blame him personally when he gets awarded for a multiple fall performance. But again, gaining this perception does not make me want to be his fan. I think that's just human nature.
Anyway, getting back to the topic, I don't need CoP to tell me that Dai is an artist on the ice like no one else.

Your comments that Patrick's win is a result of lobbying by his Federation is unfair and baseless. If Patrick's federation is so powerful, all Canadians will be winning. When Gashinki won the bronze in the last Worlds, there were accusations the Russian federation lobbied for his win. Or that when Evan won the Olympics, the Americans stole the gold from Plushenko. The conclusion is that some people find ways to discredit the other side when their favourites lost which is unfortunate. I hope the skaters have more reasoning power to think through their strengths and weaknesses, the marking system and work on improving themselves. Patrick worked on his quads and only started winning then. He did not medal at the last Olympics. Perhaps if you are right that his federation lobbied for his win, then they should have done so from the very beginning. It shows they are not that effective as you think so, aren't they?

[spikydurian]

I really and truly am not a Patrick-Hater.

Really? Based on what you have posted so far points to the contrary.

[hurrah]

Your comments that Patrick's win is a result of lobbying by his Federation is unfair and baseless. If Patrick's federation is so powerful, all Canadians will be winning. When Gashinki won the bronze in the last Worlds, there were accusations the Russian federation lobbied for his win. Or that when Evan won the Olympics, the Americans stole the gold from Plushenko. The conclusion is that some people find ways to discredit the other side when their favourites lost which is unfortunate. I hope the skaters have more reasoning power to think through their strengths and weaknesses, the marking system and work on improving themselves. Patrick worked on his quads and only started winning then. He did not medal at the last Olympics. Perhaps if you are right that his federation lobbied for his win, then they should have done so from the very beginning. It shows they are not that effective as you think so, aren't they?

I guess it seems hard to believe, but my main interest is in encouraging a more reliable judging system, but then of course, if you're a Patrick-fan, that's all nitpick thinking because the present system is just fine. Your argument that Canadian federation did not lobby for Patrick because he did not win Vancouver is not convincing to me because it could be that they started lobbying for him after the Olympics. And when I saw accusation of the Russian Federation lobbying for Gachinski during Worlds, I thought there might be something in that. And I thought there was something in the accusation that American Federation lobbied on behalf of Lysacek as well. All of these conjectures did have an impact on my personal dis/inclination to support them as a fan.

I find it believable that Patrick gets lots of Federation support because I remember reading on this board that Patrick gave an interview where he said he didn't need a quad (before the point increase occurred) because his Federation supported him or something along that line. I don't see his victories where he didn't fall as a consequence of Federation lobby. I think it was at Russian Cup that he fell three times and it didn't affect his PCS and I saw that as a product of Federation lobby.

Please remember that I was writing about the perception I formulated regarding Patrick to talk about the impact of what is written in these boards on skater's marketability and/or figure skating world's popularity.

[Olympia]

I wonder where this thread is going. But I can at least say that Dai beats Chan in terms of marketability and he has already made a tons of money by endorsement.
As Kurt always says, Dai is not a skater, but he is a rock star in Japan. His injury and comeback from it pushed him into a hero status rather than a sports figure, even though he lost quads.

I still believe that Dai can catch up with Chan, if he can land quads and, this is a big AND if judges starts to appropriately judge artistic aspect of this sports. I really do not understand why they behave that they do not know anything about artistry at all these days in judging man's skating. I was totally shocked to see that Patrick won in Fs over near perfect Dai at GPF.

Dai's team believes that quads will be back, considering that his triples and 3a became much better after the bolt was removed and according to Utako-sensei, it is a matter of time,since Dai had reliable quads in the past.

In the nutshell, Dai needs two things, quads and fair judging. I believe quads will be easier to attain than the latter. The latter maybe a work of Japanese Skating Federation, not anybody else's.

I do agree that what Daisuke has is so extraordinary that there ought to be a way to reward that aspect of skating more lavishly. I hope his quads return dependably, but he's already amazing to watch, and if he comes in second rather than first, I'll still be thrilled. I'm just happy I get to see him at his best, and that he keeps improving. That was supposed to be a career-ending injury. Thank goodness it wasn't, and one of the things that makes Dai so appealing is that he didn't make his comeback out of sheer luck. Can you imagine the hard work he put in? No wonder he's a rock star in Japan.

[Bluebonnet]

I was totally shocked to see that Patrick won in Fs over near perfect Dai at GPF.

Just want to point out that this near perfect Dai had only BV of 78.79, but Patrick had BV of 83.75. Almost 5 points higher than Daisuke's. That was more than a 3Lz with a fall.

I don't need a poll to know that Daisuke is hot!

Not to me. Daisuke is too flamboyant to be hot and sexy to me. See how different people's perspectives are?

I don't need CoP to tell me that Dai is an artist on the ice like no one else.

CoP doesn't tell you and has not been intending to tell you who is the best artist.

[skatinginbc]

Just want to point out that this near perfect Dai had only BV of 78.79, but Patrick had BV of 83.75. Almost 5 points higher than Daisuke's.

Dai received positive GOEs in every element except 4T. Patrick had negative GOEs in three elements (4T, 4T2T, 3Lz), including a fall. Dai had clearly better execution than Chan that day, but the scoring system is designed as such that unless the start value is comparable, "they may compete, but they cannot win." The emphasis on the difficulty level is disproportionally huge against the quality (execution) and artistry aspects of skating.

[hurrah]

Dai received positive GOEs in every element except 4T. Patrick had negative GOEs in three elements (4T, 4T2T, 3Lz), including a fall. Dai had clearly better execution than Chan that day, but the scoring system is designed as such that unless the start value is comparable, "they may compete, but they cannot win." The emphasis on the difficulty level is disproportionally huge against the quality (execution) and artistry aspects of skating.

Really!? When did CoP begin to privilege difficulty before quality? After changes made post-Vancouver? Is this rule definitely applicable to all skaters or only to some skaters?

[ImaginaryPogue]

hurrah - YES. The changes made post-Vancouver diminished the GOE lost on flawed high level elements and increased the base value. It is applicable to all skaters.

[Bluebonnet]

I find it believable that Patrick gets lots of Federation support because I remember reading on this board that Patrick gave an interview where he said he didn't need a quad (before the point increase occurred) because his Federation supported him or something along that line.

Where was it? This is, to say it mildly, untrue and misleading.

I think it was at Russian Cup that he fell three times and it didn't affect his PCS and I saw that as a product of Federation lobby.

So Daisuke's three falls in his LP at Japan Nationals which didn't affect his PCS could be seen as the product of his coach and his team lobbying, or his federation lobbying for him over other Japanese skaters?

[ImaginaryPogue]

I guess it seems hard to believe, but my main interest is in encouraging a more reliable judging system, but then of course, if you're a Patrick-fan, that's all nitpick thinking because the present system is just fine. Your argument that Canadian federation did not lobby for Patrick because he did not win Vancouver is not convincing to me because it could be that they started lobbying for him after the Olympics. And when I saw accusation of the Russian Federation lobbying for Gachinski during Worlds, I thought there might be something in that. And I thought there was something in the accusation that American Federation lobbied on behalf of Lysacek as well. All of these conjectures did have an impact on my personal dis/inclination to support them as a fan.

I find it believable that Patrick gets lots of Federation support because I remember reading on this board that Patrick gave an interview where he said he didn't need a quad (before the point increase occurred) because his Federation supported him or something along that line. I don't see his victories where he didn't fall as a consequence of Federation lobby. I think it was at Russian Cup that he fell three times and it didn't affect his PCS and I saw that as a product of Federation lobby.

Please remember that I was writing about the perception I formulated regarding Patrick to talk about the impact of what is written in these boards on skater's marketability and/or figure skating world's popularity.

If you could find a quote, that would be great. He did say he didn't need a quad to win, which was true (Lysacek and Buttle made it true), and he certainly said some cringeworthy stuff leading up to the Olympics, but can you find an article where he specifically mentions he didn't need a quad (before the point increase occured - aka, pre Vanocuver) because of federation support.

Out of curiousity, when Abbott falls twice and it doesn't affect his PCS, do you also see that as the product of Federation lobbying? Or if Oda? Or Denis Ten?