Really the rumor I heard is that it will be a week with the skater of your choice. I am sure more details will be forthcomingOriginally Posted by skateluvr
the closer we get to Worlds.
Really the rumor I heard is that it will be a week with the skater of your choice. I am sure more details will be forthcoming
the closer we get to Worlds.
Sadly I think figure skating would be more popular if every skater is pretty like pop stars, has enormous egos and catfight on live television all the time.
Prettiness also does get you PCS boost, that's for sure, and I don't think it's possible to take that out of judges' minds, especially when there are men judging ladies and women judging men's. I can imagine middle-aged people really liking the very nice innocent looking boy Patrick Chan...
Although the real reason he always wins is that PCS just doesn't fluctuate nearly enough. Why isn't a skater's PE going to the 4s when he falls three times? You can't call that a good performance/execution.
"You are an idiot who is not mentally capable to learn our CoP" is not the answer that a paying customer is supposed to get if you want to succeed in business. I am surprised that I have to point it out. I was sure that's a known trivial fact. For ISU the audience is a paying customer. If ISU boys don't think so, they obviously should look for another job, instead of keeping killing the popularity of this sport. The idea of comparing FS to some elite sport or classical music that doesn't require any money (and those who compare are usually not in a hurry or simply financially unable to pay) is plain stupid. The tickets for the opera house costs twice more than for a FS show. And they do have a full opera house. Because the customer there is not treated like a fool. So, he is ready to pay. Moreover, the whole concept of this attitude "you know nothing and you cannot know anything" is as valid as an arrogance of a rooster in a henhouse. Funny and that's it. Simply because the opponent can answer in the same style and fashion: you is the one who knows nothing and blah-blah. Nice way of discussion these Chan Patrol folks are offering. Basically, they are saying that if you disagree with us, you don't know CoP. This childish approach in fact only confirms that they have no reasonable and valid explanations of his wins. CoP on paper quite clearly explains how things should work. But what we see- in reality it works for some, but for "elite"- it doesn't. While Mr. Chan repeatedly wins with multiple falls, sometimes his falls are scored as non-falls, he gets +GOE for shaky landings, losing balance and slow spins. His PCS on transitions is still the highest when he zambonis the ice while transition-ing. He also gets the highest scores for PE and IN when he obviously has a big lack in both. Meanwhile other skaters are usually not allowed to win with multiple falls, they are punished for crappy landings, losing balance, lack of musicality, expressions, etc. That's a double standard, that edge where sport, with its basic idea of fair play, is done.
"You are an idiot who is not mentally capable to learn our CoP" is not the answer that a paying customer is supposed to get if you want to succeed in business. I am surprised that I have to point it out. I was sure that's a known trivial fact. For ISU the audience is a paying customer. If ISU boys don't think so, they obviously should look for another job, instead of keeping killing the popularity of this sport. The idea of comparing FS to some elite sport or classical music that doesn't require any money (and those who compare are usually not in a hurry or simply financially unable to pay) is plain stupid. The tickets for the opera house costs twice more than for a FS show. And they do have a full opera house. Because the customer there is not treated like a fool. So, he is ready to pay. Moreover, the whole concept of this attitude "you know nothing and you cannot know anything" is as valid as an arrogance of a rooster in a henhouse. Funny and that's it. Simply because the opponent can answer in the same style and fashion: you is the one who knows nothing and blah-blah. Nice way of discussion these Chan Patrol folks are offering. Basically, they are saying that if you disagree with us, you don't know CoP. This childish approach in fact only confirms that they have no reasonable and valid explanations of his wins. CoP on paper quite clearly explains how things should work. But what we see- in reality it works for some, but for "elite"- it doesn't. While Mr. Chan repeatedly wins with multiple falls, sometimes his falls are scored as non-falls, he gets +GOE for shaky landings, losing balance and slow spins. His PCS on transitions is still the highest when he zambonis the ice while transition-ing. He also gets the highest scores for PE and IN when he obviously has a big lack in both. Meanwhile other skaters are usually not allowed to win with multiple falls, they are punished for crappy landings, losing balance, lack of musicality, expressions, etc. That's a double standard, that edge where sport, with its basic idea of fair play, is done.
Agreed on all counts. Also one poster said Chan had huge jumps. Please, that is BS, he does not have huge jumps. I have seen him skate live more than once and his jumps are not huge compared to other men, if they were it would have been visible. Huge jumps would be Brezina, Oda, Plushenko back many years ago when at his best. I can see with the over the top GOE he gets anytime he lands a jump decently why one would think he has the hugest and best jumps there are but he doesnt. The judges have tried to best to fool people into thinking Chan is by far the best in every aspect of the sport and that is what justifies his many fall and many mistake cushion over everyone else. This is not the case however, maybe if he were so much better than everyone else in all 20 or so categories of the sport people would accept his 5 or 6 fall cushion, but he isnt. He is especialy overscored in + GOE on jumps, interpretation, performance, none of which he is the best at yet is still given much higher scores than anyone else in all regardless. GOE on spins is inflated quite often too, one would think he is the best spinner ever rather than just one of the better ones. Why someone like Lambiel could never approach the kind of points Chan often gets for spins is purely LOL. Then when it comes to his flawed and multi error performances, which as all who follow the sport know are frequent with Chan, PCS which should all be impacted (both his weaker components like interpretation and performances or his much lauded transitions and skating skills) when he makes major mistakes are not impacted one iota. Most glaring of all though is we are now even seeing instances he falls on a jump and doesnt even get straight -3 GOE or sometimes the mandatory 1 point deduction for a fall. If the judges were trying to make it anymore blatant to all they are literally outright cheating, and their Chanflation has gone to historic and outrageous beyond words degrees, they have now succeeded.
If scores were given out correctly per performance and per each aspect of the current mens skating, even the currently flawed system which needs alot of changes btw, a clean Chan would probably win out over the next best skater (eg- someone like a clean Takahashi) but his margin of error over other top skaters would be about 15% what it is now. The judges and Chan fanboys try to take us for fools, but unfortunately we are not, and that is why there is so much talk and probably will be until he retires unless the judging improves. Heck I used to be one of the most vocal ones, and now there I feel like a minnow, there are many people who have much more to say on the topic than I do.None of this is a unique opinion any longer, even the media and commentators especialy non Canadian ones have pointed it out quite often in the last year now.
Last edited by pangtongfan; 03-10-2012 at 11:03 AM.
Let me get at this a different way. I think that the ladies' discipline is the one that is hardest hit by the current judging system. My fear is that women's skating will become "men's skating by skaters who can't skate as well as men." This does not apply just to quads and triple Axels. Lutz edges and complete rotations on triples, speed and power, even -- it seems -- quickness of feet, all favor the men's side.
By "pretty skating" I mean the part about smooth flow across the ice on deep and secure edges, spirals with excellent amplitude and extension in addition to below-the-ankles skills, spins and moves in the field that highlight the phrasing of the music and acknowledge the esthetics of the sport.
In the days of figures, a skater acquired balance, edge and blade skills. The purpose of free skating was to put these skills to the service of a performance (not the other way around). To me, the "gliding on edges" part is the warp and the tricks are the woof of a performance. If you fall on your quad and triple Axel, your tapestry falls apart altogether.
I think it is not absurd to propose that the sport of skating would be well served by adapting it for men and for women separately. In gymnastics, women do not do the strength apparatuses of rings, parallel bars, and pommel horse. Men do not do the balance beam. Men also do not complete in rope, clubs, hoop, ball, or ribbon in rhythmic gymnastics -- they have there own fledgling version featuring martial arts kinds of moves.
My greatest concern is that figure skating, in its rush to become more like other sports, will become more like other sports.
Last edited by Mathman; 03-10-2012 at 02:41 PM.
I largely agree - I don't know how you can quote my post as diagreement of your points."You are an idiot who is not mentally capable to learn our CoP" is not the answer that a paying customer is supposed to get if you want to succeed in business. I am surprised that I have to point it out. I was sure that's a known trivial fact. For ISU the audience is a paying customer. If ISU boys don't think so, they obviously should look for another job, instead of keeping killing the popularity of this sport. The idea of comparing FS to some elite sport or classical music that doesn't require any money (and those who compare are usually not in a hurry or simply financially unable to pay) is plain stupid. The tickets for the opera house costs twice more than for a FS show. And they do have a full opera house. Because the customer there is not treated like a fool. So, he is ready to pay. Moreover, the whole concept of this attitude "you know nothing and you cannot know anything" is as valid as an arrogance of a rooster in a henhouse. Funny and that's it. Simply because the opponent can answer in the same style and fashion: you is the one who knows nothing and blah-blah. Nice way of discussion these Chan Patrol folks are offering. Basically, they are saying that if you disagree with us, you don't know CoP. This childish approach in fact only confirms that they have no reasonable and valid explanations of his wins. CoP on paper quite clearly explains how things should work. But what we see- in reality it works for some, but for "elite"- it doesn't. While Mr. Chan repeatedly wins with multiple falls, sometimes his falls are scored as non-falls, he gets +GOE for shaky landings, losing balance and slow spins. His PCS on transitions is still the highest when he zambonis the ice while transition-ing. He also gets the highest scores for PE and IN when he obviously has a big lack in both. Meanwhile other skaters are usually not allowed to win with multiple falls, they are punished for crappy landings, losing balance, lack of musicality, expressions, etc. That's a double standard, that edge where sport, with its basic idea of fair play, is done.
Good. We're getting closer to being on the same page now.
To me, the word "pretty" often sounds as though it's being used to belittle feminine qualities and to put the focus on appearance for women and on deeds for men. That's why I would prefer to refer to "beautiful skating" or "beautiful edges" if we want the focus to be on skills, on what the skater does, rather than what she looks like.
The beauty of the skating is not something specific to female bodies -- men can also achieve beautiful edges, beautiful body line, etc., and IMO should be rewarded for it.
Between 1989 and 2010, the short program rules and in some years the long program rules as well required women to show several flexibility-related skills (laybacks and spiral sequences) that many men would have difficulty with. So already the rules of the sport are different between the sexes at the highest levels. (I've just come from an adult competition where both women and men at the higher levels have a choice between step sequence or spiral sequence -- the rules are less sex-differentiated for adults, but the competitions are still divided by sex, and sometimes by age, for more meaningful comparisons.)
For all divisions -- senior, junior, novice, no-test, adult, male, female, 6.0, IJS, whatever -- smooth flow across the ice on deep and secure edges is probably the single most important quality that is rewarded. I don't think we should minimize the importance of security on edges by making it worth less than the tricks in men's skating or by referring to it as "looking pretty" as if it's more about appearance than about skating skills.
Already there are different rules about required elements, program lengths, and component factors for men vs. women. Some of those I'd like to see made more consistent between sexes, but there's certainly room to discuss areas where they should remain different or become more different to reflect differences in the way males vs. females are physically capable of practicing the sport. I don't think that making adjustments requires a completely different approach to scoring.
For example, I would recommend giving women the same amount of time as men, the same number of total elements (of which the additional one need not be another jump), and raising PCS factor to be the same as men's. If, as to be expected, the women's jump content remains easier, then the percentage of women's total score represented by PCS would be larger than under the current weighting. That might achieve the effect that you're looking for. But the women who make the best use of those PCS would do so by refining their skating skills at least as much as their above-the-blade presentation skills.
And both men or women who can use refined skating skills -- deep secure edges, strong body line and extension, full use of the whole body in non-neutral positions that successfully challenge that edge security, etc. -- should also be rewarded for doing those things well, because ultimately those things are more fundamental to "good skating" and "a good performance" than the outcome of a couple of risk elements or the exact difficulty of the risks attempted.
Math, your idea of something different for men and women is so intriguing. When you look at men's and women's gymnastics, they play up aspects of physical skills that literally couldn't be done by most members of the opposite sex. (Men on the uneven parallel bars? They could literally die from it.) I don't know what could be played up for women's skating that would make it different from men's. But it's interesting to speculate. Especially since ladies in figure skating nowadays don't seem to be able to grow as skaters as they grow taller and stronger. There's something wrong with a sport that sends only its babies in to compete. It smacks of the days of child labor, when children were used to work the machines because their hands were small enough to fit. It makes the sport a lot less attractive to watch, for me at least.
Last edited by Olympia; 03-10-2012 at 11:08 PM.
Really? Why?
Who is treating you as ‘fools’? Do you feel like one? Your insistence that you don’t understand COP despite very clear, precise, patient and point-by-point answer to your queries from gkelly (who has clearly demonstrated expertise and knowledge in fs) can only point to the facts that either you are unable to understand it or refuse to understand COP. If someone refuses to learn, do not take the initiative to learn or fail to learn, is it always someone else’s problem?
No, I don’t see some people stop complaining about COP when Patrick retires especially if another skater of his calibre comes along to dominate, and in especially if that skater does not appeal to people like you.
Your constant mob-like venomous attacks on Patrick points to personal grudges beyond reason (did he run over your dog – to quote one poster?). I will not hesitate to defend someone I like whether they are one of my favourite skater or friends especially if the attacks are uncalled for. Similarly, you wouldn’t hesitate to defend your friends wouldn’t you?
There seems to be this constant argument that “I pay so you do what I want” attitude. Does it really work like that in real life on everything? Just because you pay to watch a game, will the results always turn out to be to your liking?
And yes, we all have been arguing about the same thing again and again repeating in different forms. Whilst you continue to attack Patrick personally, I will continue to defend him. Perhaps I should use your tactics … attack your favourites? But unfortunately I see no need to do that because it is unreasonable to bring others into a fight. Maybe, one of us will win the prize at the end of this thread. And if it is indeed a skater of our choice as rumoured by demarinis5 , I am all for it unless Skatelurv’s rumour is more accurate, then you can have the prize to yourselves.
I do not believe that Let's talk or Pangtong fans so called " attack" was motivated by anything personal. They love figure skating as much as you. That's the major reason that they get so disturbed by the blatantly unfair judging which has been going on for such a long time.Your constant mob-like venomous attacks on Patrick points to personal grudges beyond reason (did he run over your dog – to quote one poster?). I will not hesitate to defend someone I like whether they are one of my favourite skater or friends especially if the attacks are uncalled for.
Even in Japan, Chan's GPF's long program thread gathered more than 300 posts with huge amount of controversy going on. It is not only this board, but I guess it is a world wide phenomenon.
There is nothing wrong for you to defend your favorite skater, but you also have to open up your own eyes to see why Patrick has been getting enormously inflated scores despite of the mistakes. I love to read Let's talk and Pangton fans posts, because they are so articulate to point out the problems in Chan's scoring, which I can not do because I do not follow protocols that closely. But indeed, what they are saying is very convincing and logical. I have to say that you are totally biased if you do not feel something is wrong with judging after reading their posts.
http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archi...Definition.htm
Did Chan Fall in the Short Program by George Rossano
Last edited by dorispulaski; 03-11-2012 at 09:07 AM. Reason: clarify link
I always end up frustrated in these discussions because I cannot shake the feeling that something is amiss with the sport, but when someone asks, how would you change it, I come up short.Good. We're getting closer to being on the same page now.
I think the real problem is this. The more I learn about skating the less enjoyable it is for me to watch it, especially the ladies discipline. I used to say, Wow, that was great (or at least, Aw, that was pretty). Now I am more likely to be thinking, "you call that an outside edge?" and ""hmm, I'll have to see the replay on that landing!"
On the other hand, I am starting to like ice dance more and more. Probably because I know the least about it (ignorance is bliss).
I like all of your (gkelly's) suggestions about possible changes to the ladies LP, especially about allowing more non-jump ways to earn points. It would be cool if they could find a way to bring back stuff like Mazurka jumps. Lengthening the time to four and a half minutes and removing the 80% PCSs factoring are worth considering, although I would prefer both men and women to do four minutes and cut down on the list of expected elements.
(Aside: In men's skating if there were fewer jumping passes then skaters would be better rewarded for triple-triples without the need for changing the base values, and skaters would not find themselves stymied by Zayak problems.)
The idea of combining Lutz and flip jumps into one category for Zayak purposes should be explored for ladies, IMHO. This might take the pressure off the technical specialists in making e calls. Outside edge = Lutz, inside edge = flip. Either one fills the slot for that type of jump and gets base value, plus GOE for a really distinct edge. No need for any such thing as a flutz. For a borderline edge that is neither fish nor fowl, same base value but the judges could take off negative GOE if they thought the take-off was weak.
From these photos it appears that Patrick is supporting the majority of his weight on his hands. Probably should have been called a fall. I am not losing any sleep over it. In any sport sometimes the call goes your way, sometimes against you.
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...04170815_n.jpg
So, basically when they scored it as a non-fall, they told us that if Chan removed his hands from the ice, he would still be on blades! Well, on one toe to be exact. Yeah, right.
^ As I read the rule, it does not mean that the skater would still be upright (balanced on one toe
So in this picture, if the two legs on the right are your feet and the other leg is your hand, that's a "hand down" but not a fall. But if the two legs on the right are your hands and the leg on the left is your toe-pick, then that's a fall. Yes?
http://www.demingartstudio.com/site_...eggedtable.jpg
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