Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

[hurrah]

Are we talking about skaters' sex appeal or are we talking about the photographers' job quality?

In my last message, I refrained myself from repeating what I already said, that Patrick has no sex appeal. I only said those photos were yuck, except for that wrinkley one with a cheshire cat grin which I think is not sexy but is appealing. It seems to depict Patrick at his best. He looks like a very friendly guy with no ulterior motives. Alot of the other photos seem to be the result of the photographer trying to make Patrick look like a hunk and not really succeeding.

Sex appeal is subjective, but I don't think the photos you brought are any indication that Patrick's got sex appeal. And mine shows that Dai's got loads!

[Bluebonnet]

Alot of the other photos seem to be the result of the photographer trying to make Patrick look like a hunk and not really succeeding.

Patrick was only 19 when he did those photo shoot. Still he was such a heart-breaker already. I like the one on the top left which he wears suit very much.

Sex appeal is subjective, but I don't think the photos you brought are any indication that Patrick's got sex appeal. And mine shows that Dai's got loads!

I'll stop right here. There is no winning or losing. So let's move on.

[deedee1]

Gosh, some of you guys are crossing the line, I think.
These discussions are leading us nowhere. I do not want to see turning this thread, or any threads to Patrick/Dai fans' war. We already had enough among Michelle/Sasha fans and Yuna/Mao fans.

Understandable that some of die-hard fans want to defend his/her favorite(s), but can we just concentrate on skaters and their skates, discuss about them, enjoy and value various views from other fans? That is the reason I love this board, and registered myself at Golden Skate years ago.

Their time as eligible skater, especially on top of their game is so limited. We are very lucky to have truly special skaters like Dai and Patrick currently competing head to head; while inspiring each other to improve further. Such a feast to our eyes! Why don't we calm down a bit and appreciate this fact, please?

P.S. With or without sex appeal, both are great skaters. Period.

[callalily]

The tone and frequency of assumptions and baseless accusations on skating boards create false impressions contrary to reality and facts, whether about the scoring systems or Chan's character and the way he is scored compared to others.

I agree. Having a skater of Chan's calibre is a wonderful thing for the sport, IMO. He has skated some remarkable programs which I've felt privileged to watch (and I've watched the sport for a long time).

Is he my favourite? No, not at this point, but Chan is still developing, and it's exciting to see what might come next. Meanwhile, I log on to message boards and often see people carping on and on, IMHO at the expense of their enjoyment of the skating itself. Even though he's not my favourite, Chan's skills are very apparent, and his skill set is perfect for this scoring system, which is why he gets the marks. Sometimes I wonder if some people wouldn't be happier if he just hung up his skates. Is that what we want for the sport? (Or would that make it easier for a favourite skater to win?)

I don't think casual fans are losing any sleep over skaters winning competitions with falls. Casual viewers have never understood the scoring system anyway (how many of them understood ordinals?), but IMO they love to see dynamic, risk-taking performances.

Skating board and blog rhetoric has been setting up "winning with falls" as a great sin, but I just don't buy it. A skater can accumulate points in many ways through quality elements and skating, and those points should not be invalidated by a fall. Should a clean but safe program, which pushes no technical boundaries and takes few risks, win - over a program that is more daring, simply because the second skater fell, regardless of other exceptional aspects of the second performance? Sure, we could penalize falls much more heavily, but then we would likely see cautious, safe (and to many people, boring) skates. I don't think that would help the sport.

There is no such thing as a perfect scoring system. 6.0 had many flaws of its own. Let's not pretend that 6.0 led to fairer outcomes.

[evangeline]

How surreal. In the midst of this fevered and apparently super important discussion about sex appeal and certain skaters....nobody yet noticed that according to that Rankopedia poll DAVID DUCHOVNY (what is this, the 90s?) of all people is ranked NUMBER ONE.* That alone should give a hint about how futile it is to find absolutes regarding something like sex appeal.



*LOL, on the bottom of the poll, it says that there were apparently only 69 votes. 'Nuff said about its validity.

[spikydurian]

Patrick was only 19 when he did those photo shoot. Still he was such a heart-breaker already. I like the one on the top left which he wears suit very much.



I'll stop right here. There is no winning or losing. So let's move on.

LOL ... this thread has taken an interesting turn. Let's start another thread on "Can Dai beat Patrick in sex appeal".

[evangeline]

LOL ... this thread has taken an interesting turn. Let's start another thread on "Can Dai beat Patrick in sex appeal".

I dare you to make a poll with this question.....

[mikeko666]

From the interview Patrick gave to ice.network after he won 2010 Skate Canada with four falls in total:
(GS board doesn't allow me to paste the direct link here.)

Chan acknowledged his role as a judges' favorite, saying he's grateful to be recognized for his skating skills.
"It's a good position to be in," he said. "I know [coach and choreographer] Lori [Nichol] speaks highly of me to judges, and I want to perform the way she says I can.

[hurrah]

Well, I'm kind of relieved to know that there was some basis for my fuzzy mis-recollection that Patrick said that he didn't need a quad because his Federation supported him.

Now, let's get back to sex appeal issue! Far more interesting! AND important!

[ImaginaryPogue]

Well, I'm kind of relieved to know that there was some basis for my fuzzy mis-recollection that Patrick said that he didn't need a quad because his Federation supported him.

Now, let's get back to sex appeal issue! Far more interesting! AND important!

I recall that statement. Of course, he had landed the quad in the LP, so it had nothing to do with him not needing a quad (nor was it before Vancouver)

[spikydurian]

The rules apply the same to all skaters.

However, skaters who are attempting quads get more benefit than skaters who don't attempt them, and skaters who rotate the quad attempts get more benefit than those whose attempts are called as underrotated or downgraded.

Also, if the difference in difficulty level is high enough it can outweigh smaller differences in quality -- under any judging system, although the specifics will vary, just as they will vary with a different Scale of Values under the same IJS rules.

And if the quality of everything else is good enough, that can outweigh the points lost by a few major mistakes. The amount of points lost to those mistakes will vary depending on which year's Scale of Values is in effect.



Assuming everything else is comparable, yes. And the way the SoV is set up, that would be the case.

However, to take a somewhat extreme example, suppose a skater of poor novice quality who deserves PCS in the low 3s and executes level 1 spins and steps with 0 or negative GOE, but 7 clean double jumps. And a skater of pretty good senior quality who deserves PCS in the 6s executes more difficult spins and steps with quality worthy of positive GOEs, and flubs 7 attempted triple jumps.

It's certainly possible in that situation that the second skater would win. (How serious are the flubs? What scoring system are we using? If IJS, what year's rules and SoV?)

In theory skaters that far apart in basic skating ability shouldn't be competing at the same competition, but it will happen sometimes. You could easily see a similar range of PCS and jumps attempted at a JGP event or at a US regional event.

However, if the skater with the doubles has much stronger skating and spins and high-quality doubles, s/he could conceivably beat even a skater who stands up on 7 rotated but mildly flubbed triples, let alone underrotated ones.

On the other hand, because of the high values of quads even with falls, if one skater lands 7 clean triples and another falls on 7 rotated quads, the quad guy is pretty much guaranteed to win. Especially since it's unlikely that a skater capable of attempting 7 quads would have weak skating skills.

Thanks gkelly. Well articulated. It makes sense to me!

[Mathman]

For those who insist that the sins of winning with falls and unaffected Performance values are unique to COP and never an issue under 6.0, let's look at Plushenko's 2004 Worlds FS and the results...

Here is the difference, to me. Under 6.0 you could say, well, that was a fluky result, what were the judges smoking?

But in CoP it's right there in the rules. You can easily construct on paper a performance that has many falls but still scores a bucketful of points. So instead of asking what the judges were smoking, you have to ask what the authors of the scoring system were smoking.

(Of course in either system one can imagine a situation where a performance marred by a fall is still better than the other guy's.)

[gkelly]

Here is the difference, to me. Under 6.0 you could say, well, that was a fluky result, what were the judges smoking?

But in CoP it's right there in the rules.

Under 6.0 it was right there in the rules as well: a fall is no bar toward winning (paraphrased).

Multiple falls would make winning less likely, but there was still nothing in the rules to forbid it and an actual statement in the rules to allow it. It all depended on what else the skater did right, and what the other skaters did and how well. Everything, not just the jumps.

(Of course in either system one can imagine a situation where a performance marred by a fall is still better than the other guy's.)

Exactly. So there's no need for rules that allow the program with fall(s) to beat one without falls to have been designed after smoking mind-altering substances.

But to get more specific about particular performances, you have to look at multiple examples of performances with falls beating out performances without and see where the skater who fell was better. And ask whether the rules or guidelines that shape judges' preferences should favor awarding partial credit for partial completion of difficult skills, whether falls should always be penalized more than other types of mistakes that are equally serious technical failures but don't affect the surface aesthetics of the performance, whether surface aesthetics should always outweigh technical content, etc.

ETA:

For example, here's the performance with the most successful jump content from the men's LP at 1998 Worlds, which, IIRC, placed 10th, a good result for this skater.

Here's a performance with three falls that placed 4th in the free skate and won the bronze medal.

Aside from staying on his feet, what about the former performance can you point out that was better than or even as good as the latter?

[let`s talk]

No, Takahashi is not sexy.

Define "sexy". Or "sex". I am speechless.

[seniorita]

Baby Plush falling all over the place, priceless video