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Thread: Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

  1. #151
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    I brought up the poll not to start a sexiness contest but to show there is a diversity of views on the subject that should be accepted instead of declaring one's feelings as an universal truth. Eagerly discrediting the polls does not invalidate others' opinions that are different from yours. I also brought it up as an example among other unsubstantiated statements made by the poster as factual premises for absurd suggestions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Here is the difference, to me. Under 6.0 you could say, well, that was a fluky result, what were the judges smoking?

    But in CoP it's right there in the rules. You can easily construct on paper a performance that has many falls but still scores a bucketful of points. So instead of asking what the judges were smoking, you have to ask what the authors of the scoring system were smoking.

    (Of course in either system one can imagine a situation where a performance marred by a fall is still better than the other guy's.)
    I didn't bring up the video to dispute the win, though you all can watch Brian Joubert's performance at the same competition for comparison and judgement. Would it be controversial on skating boards of today? I meant for it to show winning with a fall is not the exclusive domain of evil COP system, which, at least, as you mentioned, accounts for the decision. Keep in mind it wasn't just a fall from a jump, it was a fall that negated a whole jump.

    As well, looking at the Gold and Silver skates of 2004 Worlds under 6.0, I can't help noticing how empty they were compared to today's winning programs, in the number of jumps, other elements, as well as all moves between the elements, i.e. transition. How much skating skills were demonstrated there? How much artistry was expressed via skating skills instead of arm movements on rather still moments?

    Methinks the nostalgic lenses many wear while exalting the old system as vastly superior are heavily rose colour tinted.

  2. #152
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    ^ Thats because Neo and Nijinkski didnt have transitions either

    How was less in jumps in comparisson to today? 4 Toeloop - 3 Toeloop - 2 Loop, 4 Toeloop, 3 Axel, 3 Axel - ½ Loop - 3 Flip, 3 Lutz, 3 Salchow, 3 Loop (boom fell)

    You find all and all one video that Plush missed a loop and won, even Dick Button thought it wouldnt change the result :D Joubert was upcoming skater with three euro medals and the upset of Euros, and Plushenko was the world champion, olympic medalist etc etc who slipped in one jump. You 'd think the same wouldnt happen today?
    In Worlds 2005 he became 5th-6th I dont remember in sp after the fall on quad. If you want to give an example I would say Euros 2004 was an example of despite multiple falls they gave him the silver.

  3. #153
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    ^^^ I'm not discrediting Plushenko or Joubert, but rather arguments that such winning only happens under COP or that COP encourages and rewards falls. At least results under COP are justified and explainable with rules applicable to all and open protocols of how judges mark each element and component. Such openness and today's online forums simply provide more opportunities for debates and creating controversies, as well as establishing false assumptions, accusations, and other internet memes and beliefs.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    How surreal. In the midst of this fevered and apparently super important discussion about sex appeal and certain skaters....nobody yet noticed that according to that Rankopedia poll DAVID DUCHOVNY (what is this, the 90s?) of all people is ranked NUMBER ONE.*
    A recent poll by Men's Health magazine chose Jennifer Aniston as the sexiest woman of all time.

    Sexier than Cleopatra? Sexier than Helen of Troy? Sexier than the Queen of Sheba? Sexier than Eleanor of Aquitaine? Sexier than Marilyn Monroe? Sexier than Elizabeth Taylor playing Cleopatra?

    OK, whatever, but here I have to draw the line: Sexier than Sophia Loren?
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-22-2012 at 02:53 PM.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Methinks the nostalgic lenses many wear while exalting the old system as vastly superior are heavily rose colour tinted.
    To me, the difference is this.

    When Plushenko hit a rut and fell even before lift-off, my reaction was, "Oops, ha ha, ice is slippery even for the Great One! Well, he won't get any credit for that failed attempt, but he can still pull out the win overall."

    When a skater falls on a quad attempt in the current system my reaction is, "Ooh, too bad. Well, it was a valiant effort anyway. Good for him for trying it. Close...but no cigar."

    It's the "no cigar" aspect of sports that the ISU does not get.

    (JMO of course.)

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    A recent poll by Men's Health magazine chose Jennifer Aniston as the sexiest woman of all time.

    Sexier than Cleopatra? Sexier than Helen of Troy? Sexier than the Queen of Sheba? Sexier than Eleanor of Aquitaine? Sexier than Marilyn Monroe? Sexier than Elizabeth Taylor playing Cleopatra?

    OK, whatever, but here I have to draw the line: Sexier than Sophia Loren?
    It's just common hubris to decide for all Ages, societies, cultures, races, etc. who or what is best in areas of subjective and variable values. It's the egocentric human nature to often describe how nature, astral bodies, and other species fall for human beauties, who might incur no mercy in being munched down by beings higher on the food chain the way we kill and eat different species.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    It might possibly create something like the Trixie Schuba/Janet Lynn phenomenon. Trixie Schuba got gold but Janet Lynn was more beloved.
    Trixie won because of figures and she was not the lovely elf like Janet Lynn who smiled thru her Olympic fall and the Japanese in Sapporo adored her, as did we. She is one of the best free skaters of all time. Janet Lynn defines what was best about free skating right up until 6-7 triples became the "ideal" skate.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    A recent poll by Men's Health magazine chose Jennifer Aniston as the sexiest woman of all time.

    Sexier than Cleopatra? Sexier than Helen of Troy? Sexier than the Queen of Sheba? Sexier than Eleanor of Aquitaine? Sexier than Marilyn Monroe? Sexier than Elizabeth Taylor playing Cleopatra?

    OK, whatever, but here I have to draw the line: Sexier than Sophia Loren?
    I know, Math. That one completely floored me. Even just choosing between her and Angelina Jolie, it seems an lamebrained decision. But when you factor in Sophia Loren, words cannot express. I mean, for me, that's like someone choosing—oh, I don't know, one of the Jonas Brothers as the sexiest man of all time. I'll tell you something: from a woman's point of view, if someone gave me the magical power to look like anyone I chose, "Jennifer Aniston" would not be the first words out of my mouth. (Maybe Marina Klimova....)

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    A recent poll by Men's Health magazine chose Jennifer Aniston as the sexiest woman of all time.

    Sexier than Cleopatra? Sexier than Helen of Troy? Sexier than the Queen of Sheba? Sexier than Eleanor of Aquitaine? Sexier than Marilyn Monroe? Sexier than Elizabeth Taylor playing Cleopatra?

    OK, whatever, but here I have to draw the line: Sexier than Sophia Loren?
    What, MM what about Angelina Jolie? Has Brad heard he divorced the sexiest woman of all time (LMAO) to marry the plain but sweet Angelina? (never skinnier but increasingly voluptuous-only a Goddess to make that happen! Because none of these sexy people will stoop to plastic surgery, of course! ) LOL David Duchovny? He wasn't*all that* 20 years ago, what a poll! Very entertaining thread despite the usual CoP debate.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    To me, the difference is this.

    When Plushenko hit a rut and fell even before lift-off, my reaction was, "Oops, ha ha, ice is slippery even for the Great One! Well, he won't get any credit for that failed attempt, but he can still pull out the win overall."

    When a skater falls on a quad attempt in the current system my reaction is, "Ooh, too bad. Well, it was a valiant effort anyway. Good for him for trying it. Close...but no cigar."

    It's the "no cigar" aspect of sports that the ISU does not get.

    (JMO of course.)
    In this particular example, it was not a rut that caused the fall but a loss of control of the edge. There was nothing to indicate that he wasn't given credit for that jump. It seemed to be simply ignored like it didn't happen. Who knows how the judges really thought? Their judgement was simply accepted. Under COP, Oda wasn't given any benefit of consideration when he fell after landing his 2A because of a rut at Worlds 2010. Heavy penalties were imposed on the jump. When Chan has fluke falls during transition or footwork he is duely penalized, even incurring fall deductions on stumbles, rut or no rut. His fall after beautifully landing 4T+3T combo because he bumped into the board incurred full penalties. There is no consideration of the cause of a fall. No falls are ignored. A missed jump? Well, so far no one could have won a Worlds title with it. COP is tough and unforgiving. You go clean with low level jumps, you will lose on low BV. You want to rest during the program? You pay for it when someone else is going gung ho. You try to fool the judges by going 95 degree short of the rotations, the tech panel will nail you. There is no hiding wrong edge take off either. No cigars for no actual performance.

    They gave out cigars more inexplicably under 6.0 with the "Ooops, ha ha, ice is slippery even for the great one", maybe simply because the great one should get a cigar no matter what.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 02-22-2012 at 03:45 PM.

  11. #161
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    Is a "cigar" full credit for the jump? Any credit for the jump (e.g., quads and rotated harder triples with falls still add positive points to the total score under IJS, contributed significantly to the base mark from which deductions were taken in 6.0 short programs, and in 6.0 free programs affected the judges' perceptions of overall technical ability, for better or worse depending on how close the attempt was to succeeding)?

    Or does cigar = gold medal? Because most of the skaters don't earn that no matter how many jumps they land or how many times other skaters fall. And even under 6.0 the rules specifically said it was possible to earn the [strike]cigar[/strike] gold medal even with a fall.

    In any case, that might answer the question of what the judges or rulemakers were smoking.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    I'm not discrediting Plushenko or Joubert, but rather arguments that such winning only happens under COP or that COP encourages and rewards falls.
    It is a fact that an element with a fall often receives a partial credit under the CoP. Chan received 57.58% (= 1.90/3.30) of the base mark from his CiSt3 blemished with a fall at 2011 TEB. And he received 73.69% (= 7.59/10.30) of the base mark from his failed 4T at 2011 Skate Canada. Did Plushenko receive any credit for his failed element at the 2004 Worlds? No. He won not because he collected partial credits here and there just enough to outscore a relatively clean Joubert. There is a big difference between "a fall is no bar toward winning" and "a partial credit is given to a failed element".

    To discredit the statement that "the sky is blue", one cannot argue that "because the sea is blue as well, the claim that the sky is blue is false." By the same token, to discredit my statement that "under the CoP, difficulty matters the most, outweighing execution", one cannot say that because 6.0 system did the same, it is false to claim that CoP values difficulty more than execution.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    At least results under COP are justified and explainable with rules applicable to all and open protocols of how judges mark each element and component. Such openness and today's online forums simply provide more opportunities for debates
    One should be careful not to confuse "openness" with "validity". To determine who the best skater is, we can have all skaters go through a high jump competition, and whoever jumps the highest is crowned the winner. The results are "justified and explainable with rules applicable to all and open protocols of how judges mark each element and component." But is it a valid way of determining the outcomes? The "openness" in that case creates false assumptions and beliefs about the fairness of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Methinks the nostalgic lenses many wear while exalting the old system as vastly superior are heavily rose colour tinted.
    I just want to point out: Criticizing NJS does not equal to supporting 6.0 or wanting the old system back. Equating critics of the new with supporters of the old is like creating smokes and mirrors to distort and marginalize the logic and arguments of the opponents.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 02-22-2012 at 07:15 PM.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    In any case, that might answer the question of what the judges or rulemakers were smoking.


    I guess what i was trying to say is that when Chan falls on a pretty good quad attempt, the scoring system gives him a soggy old cigar butt (partial credit) anyway.

  14. #164
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    A missed jump? Well, so far no one could have won a Worlds title with it.
    I am not completely sure what you mean here. Going strictly by the numbers, at 2011 Worlds Patrick could have omitted both his solo 4T and his solo 3A and still outpointed his rivals. He could have omitted his 4T+3T and his 3Lz and still won. He could have omitted his 3Lz and his 3F and his 2A+2T...and still won.

    Well, maybe his PCSs wouldn't have been so high in that case.

    Oh no, wait. PCSs are independent of the elements.

  15. #165
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    "Can Todd Eldredge close the gap on Alexei Yagudin and Evgeni Plushenko?" That was a question I asked myself when I attended the 2001 Worlds in Vancouver. I was there when Todd skated with a flying speed, faster than his rivals if not everyone in the competition, and with passion and desire throughout his three phases of competition (qualifying, short, free). I was there when the audience gave him a standing ovation and booed at the scores he received for his near perfect free skate wherein the only "error" was his downgrading the opening quad to a clean triple (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEZyj0DM_5o). Alexei Yagudin and Evgeni Plushenko had already skated earlier. "The judges are missing the point about Presentation," said the commentator. I was there. I knew then that a new judging system was needed.

    Can Takahashi close the gap on Patrick Chan?
    Well, if Takahashi has a near perfect skate as Todd had in 2001 Worlds and is still beaten in PE by someone who has three visible flaws, then I will say another new judging system is needed.

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