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Thread: Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

  1. #166
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    ^ I have to watch Eldredge's skate again but Worlds 2001 Plush killed the fs and got SO also. I thought this was his best skated competition from the Q round!Yagudin was injured but I thought his programs were great.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Oh no, wait. PCSs are independent of the elements.
    Good one. What did you smoke?

    And I m confused with the sky is blue example. What color is it to debate it?

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Yagudin was injured but I thought his programs were great.
    Yagudin had 3 visible errors in the LP. He ran hot and cold. At one point the commentator even stated, "Looking tired, some fatigue sets in again". He however grabbed the audience's heart with his final footwork. Yagudin received standing ovation, as did Plushenko. Don't forget that the audience booed at Todd's low scores after they had watched Yagudin's performance. I had no problem with Yagudin getting a higher technical score or winning over Todd, but I wondered then what exactly was scored under the broad category of Presentation (or second mark) and thought that the ISU needed a new system to break up various skills under that category.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 02-22-2012 at 09:17 PM.

  3. #168
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    And I m confused with the sky is blue example. What color is it to debate it?
    I coinfess that I had to read that post pretty carefully, too.

    I think the point was this: The CoP is bad. The 6.0 system was bad, too.

    Even as: The sky is blue. The sea is blue, too.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    And I m confused with the sky is blue example. What color is it to debate it?
    Sorry for the confusion. I meant: The fact that 6.0 was imperfect does not discredit the criticism that NJS is imperfect.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 02-22-2012 at 09:06 PM.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Sorry for the confusion. I meant: The fact that 6.0 was imperfect does not discredit the criticism that NJS is imperfect.
    Sorry, it's IJS - International Judging System.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    When a skater falls on a quad attempt in the current system my reaction is, "Ooh, too bad. Well, it was a valiant effort anyway. Good for him for trying it. Close...but no cigar."

    It's the "no cigar" aspect of sports that the ISU does not get.
    But how do you show that you've acknowledged for trying it?
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 02-22-2012 at 10:48 PM.

  6. #171
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ Hearty applause.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ Hearty applause.
    That's not good enough. It's a competition. The ultimate goal is to earn points as many as possible. So there must be some sort of incentives to induce more on trying it. Or they'd go to find other easier ways to earn points.

  8. #173
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    Takashi needs to up his technical consistency. He doesn't need two quads, as two solid triple axels (with Chan's one) makes up for his lack of a second quad. What he needs to do more is tack on triple toes at the end of his combos instead of measly double toes. Each double toe costs him 2.6 in base value plus a few tenths for GOE. Unless he learns a combination with a half-loop in it, he needs to make sure to do a three jump combination where he does a double-toe, double-loop at the very least.

    As expressive as his long program is this year, it lacks speed throughout compared to Chan's. In an effort to match the mood of the music, his edges aren't as deep and the judges don't award as many skating skill points for slow edge changes.

  9. #174
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    That's not good enough. It's a competition. The ultimate goal is to earn points as many as possible. So there must be some sort of incentives to induce more on trying it. Or they'd go to find other easier ways to earn points.
    Here is how I look at it. In any sport an athlete who strives mightily but unsuccessfully deserves our applause for his effort. He does not deserve any points.

    As for easier ways to earn points, let's say a skater has the choice of attempting a quad toe or of backing off with, say, a triple loop. A successful quad gets 10.3 points. A triple loop gets half that, 5.1 points. Suppose we changed the rules so that an unsuccessful quad gets 0 points. Risk and reward. The reward is 10.3 points. The risk is that you might get 0 points. If you are an athlete going for the championship, which would you do? Go for 10 points against the risk of getting nothing, or take the safer 5 points?

    You get a big reward precisely because you took a big risk. That's the way it should be.

    The way it is now, you get reward with no risk. You throw up a half-baked quad. If it works you get 10 points If it fails you still get 5 points. Where is the risk? Where is the sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by draqq
    What he needs to do more is tack on triple toes at the end of his combos instead of measly double toes. Each double toe costs him 2.6 in base value plus a few tenths for GOE.
    The rules prevent him from putting a triple toe on the end of anything.

    Daisuke's program already has two triple Axels, including a 3A+3T, and two triple flips. He cannot do another 3T anywhere in his program because you can repeat only two different kinds of triple jumps.

    Quote Originally Posted by draqq
    ...he needs to make sure to do a three jump combination where he does a double-toe, double-loop at the very least.
    His program already has a 3Lz+2T+2Lo combination.

    In fact, there is not really any realistic way that Daisuke can score any more points than he already does. Hence -- no, Daisuke cannot catch Chan no matter what he does.

  10. #175
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    Well he could make sure he lands everything, especially a quad in both SP & LP, and tries his darnedest to maximize his GoEs. He's also leaving some points on the table with one of his spins iirc

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Daisuke's program already has two triple Axels, including a 3A+3T, and two triple flips. He cannot do another 3T anywhere in his program because you can repeat only two different kinds of triple jumps.
    Where is the other 3T? I can't recall.

  12. #177
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    Yes, you are right, Mathman.

    Partick's base value on jumps is just above everyone's; not only because of 2 quads, but that 'killing' 3Lz+half Lo+3S sequence in the 2nd half. When he does this seqence, instead of the normal 3Lz (or F)+2T+2Lo, he can add extra 2A as his 8th jumping passage.

    Dai cannot catch Patrick, but he can narrow the gap in base value by moving both 3As into the second half. 3A is a pretty consistent jump for Dai. Watching his free skate at 4CC, his stamina looked just okay to have two 3A in the 2nd half. It is only 10% of its base point, they may say, but all these little things do matter under CoP.

    2 quads is not a realistic choice yet for Dai this season. Heading into the Worlds, this would be the best plan that he is doable right now. What do you think?

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko666 View Post
    Where is the other 3T? I can't recall.
    The 2nd 3T doesn't exist that's why you can't. The rules only allow two repeated quad or triples in a LP. Dai repeats 3A and 3F that's why he cannot repeat 3T.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko666 View Post
    Where is the other 3T? I can't recall.
    There isn't another one. 2 3A's and 2 3F's. Can only repeat 2 triple jumps (though you can have 3 jump combos or seq.)

  15. #180
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    Yes, you are right, Mathman.

    Partick's base value on jumps is just above everyone's; not only because of 2 quads, but that 'killing' 3Lz+half Lo+3S sequence in the 2nd half. When he does this seqence, instead of the normal 3Lz (or F)+2T+2Lo, he can add extra 2A as his 8th jumping passage.

    Dai cannot catch Patrick, but he can narrow the gap in base value by moving both 3As into the second half. 3A is a pretty consistent jump for Dai. Watching his free skate at 4CC, his stamina looked just okay to have two 3A in the 2nd half. It is only 10% of its base point, they may say, but all these little things do matter under CoP.

    2 quads is not a realistic choice yet for Dai this season. Heading into the Worlds, this would be the best plan that he is doable right now. What do you think?
    Umm, I say that's high risk low return. It still would not have a higher base value than Patrick, and even if he lands both 3As, he will likely get less GOEs and that would cancel the 10% base point increase. If he skates clean, there is no one but Patrick who can beat him, but if he skates badly, he can be overtaken by other skaters.

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