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Thread: Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

  1. #31
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    I think the technical panel should explain to the skating audiences and to other skaters why Chan's fall in the SP wasn't marked as a fall. It is annoying that the panel can do whatever they want and they don't have any responsibility of what they are doing. In any other sport, the panel would have been interviewed in TV/magazine and they would have had some explaining to do!

  2. #32
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    No unkindness..and you think he should win with falls like that? I think from your posts you don't find it right, understandable, or good for the fans...
    What makes me sad is that people blame Patrick for the rules of the CoP. I think the rules should be changed to place a greater emphasis on a clean skate and a greater penalty on falls than is currently the case. But this has nothing to do with Patrick.

    Patrick skates according to the rules, and he does so better than anyone else. If the ISU were to change the rules, presumably he would change his programs accordingly. The judges give him high marks not because he is a judges' pet or because Skate Canada is politically influential, but because Patrick does all the things that the IJS gives out points for.

    So what I wish is that the discussion would focus on the IJS, pro and con, rather than on Patrick Chan pro and con.

  3. #33
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    Exactly, Math. Besides the fact that Patrick is a wonderful skater, and plainly a strategic skater as well, he clearly skates with all his heart. There's no reason to speak as if he or his team has been underhanded in any way just because we don't always understand why his scores are what they are.

    For quite a long time, because I was such a Michelle Kwan fan, I kind of resented Tara for winning the Olympic gold in 1998. Then one day I had a sudden understanding that she was an ambitious kid with a lot of talent who did what every skater does--skated to win. How the chips fell on that particular night was not in her hands at all after she finished skating, or before she started skating (Michelle's skate was judged and marked earlier in the evening). I thought that Michelle's artistry should have been weighted more heavily against Tara's jumps, but that was not the judges' evaluation, and the end result of the marks doesn't change the fact that I can continue to love Michelle's skating and admire Tara's.

    If there's something questionable with the way moves are valued in this system, it's not the doing of anyone on the ice.

  4. #34
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    IMHO, skateluvr said nothing untoward. I reread her posts and don't see them as attacks on Patrick but rather on the judges. She's basically calling him a judges' favorite. And they fuel that kind of thing by not counting a fall as a fall. In this case it's not the system but the judging that is frustrating.

    That said, his FP was majestic.

    And makes a Takahashi fan's heart sink.

  5. #35
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    I dont like when skaters get accused of decisions that are not in their hands, I try not to do it myself although we are carried away by personal favs sometimes.I ve also tried the last couple of years to enjoy my favs regardless of the outcome and who won, but that took me some effort!

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I thought that Michelle's artistry should have been weighted more heavily against Tara's jumps, but that was not the judges' evaluation, and the end result of the marks doesn't change the fact that I can continue to love Michelle's skating and admire Tara's.
    So there is hope I might rewatch Evas's Lp from Vancouver. That needs a lot of process from my part.

    For someone who watched 1998 ladies competition some 8 years later (YouTube) and was not emotionally involved since it was old news, I never understood the final outcome.

    But what I cant really get over is ladies in SLC that I watched in real time , and no matter how many times I re-watched it I cant get over that Michelle or Irina didnt get the gold medal. Yes I know why they didnt, but I dont like the explanation.
    Last edited by seniorita; 02-15-2012 at 11:41 AM.

  6. #36
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    She's basically calling him a judges' favorite.
    I guess it is human nature. When someone is the teacher's pet at school, the kids on the playground don't beat up the teacher, they beat up the pet.

  7. #37
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Point taken, MM, but I really don't think the posts in question constituted a beating up, and IMO it's unnecessarily sensitive to label them as such.

    Fans will be fans. They should be restrained before they start stomping each other to death, but a little verbal enthusiasm on one side or the other is fundamentally good for the sport. Take it away and you take the fans away too.

  8. #38
    Custom Title spikydurian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I guess it is human nature. When someone is the teacher's pet at school, the kids on the playground don't beat up the teacher, they beat up the pet.
    Not all fans 'beat up' their favourites' opponents. I don't (K, I only speak for myself). When MK lost the gold and Kurt didn't win in the Olympics, I was very very disappointed for them and my heart sank. But it didn't make me rant and spit venom on the other figure skaters. Life moves on, another competition another day. Perhaps different sports attract different types of fans. I see glaring different fan reactions in sports such as tennis and football. The former I am always amazed at the audience bi-partisanship (I am sure they all have favourites), the latter partisanship veering towards hooliganism.

  9. #39
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    IMHO, skateluvr said nothing untoward. I reread her posts and don't see them as attacks on Patrick but rather on the judges. She's basically calling him a judges' favorite. And they fuel that kind of thing by not counting a fall as a fall. In this case it's not the system but the judging that is frustrating.

    That said, his FP was majestic.

    And makes a Takahashi fan's heart sink.
    Yes, you are right spun, and I'm getting picked on when several other posters in every men's thread say exactly what I said. Pang actually said "Patrick could fall 6 times with and take a dump on the ice, " and no mod said a thing. Pang has more influence than me-he must be a mod favorite LOL. And I did ask him to edit it out (the bathroom humor) since I started the thread.

    I love to see Chan skate - clean. But he falls more than any "great" male WC I have seen. Still, I'm thrilled we have him currently.

    No, Olympia, it is not because Dai is my fave. I love his style, but his jumps are failing. It is the fact that I can read the protocols, do the math, and that still does not justify the results we are seeing. I did not think Yuna should have so outscored Mao in Vancouver. She should have won, but because her programs were much better, and she skated them perfectly. i thought Mao's scores should have been much closer, but the system allows this hypperinflation, any mark can be padded and they add up to big scores. What shall we expect at next Olympics for a clean 7 triple program? Did Ashley really skate far better at 4cc or Nationals? I thought her two GP events pretty close, but look at the scoring differences. You have to really study all this like a pt job if you are not Mathman. Me, I am into enjoying the skaters, esp Chan, but unfair is unfair.

    For those who care about fairness, tweaking is needed. And for those who value vertical programs, tweaking is needed. Sasha skated at the wrong time. She would be beating a clean MK a lot under CoP. How would we explain that to new fans?

    In my wish list for 2012, I asked for GS with all the math geeks, avid fans, former/present skaters to design a better system from the ground up, or tweak the present to reflect falls as a bad thing, etc. To me, correct edges are good but a flutz should not be worthless if landed, so there have to be levels/points awarded here. Rewarding people for trying a quad or a 3x3 that they hardly land in practice if it's rotated mostly, or the edges were right seems crazy to me. A wipeout fall should be worth nothing.

    I maintain that the best skating is always seen in icedance, blade to ice, and that is the place for the twizzles and the one foot long sequences. I am sick of the same CoP programs, the jumps strategic not musically placed, the ugly spins, and so much busyness which CoP rewards. Arm flailing, purposeless movement.

    Yes, I have seen much more 6.0 skating. That makes me a dinosaur for all the young guys/gals here who check all the protocols (remember them!) and put the decimals in. Do decimals make this any more quantitative? More a sport? No.

    6.0 got thrown out for the usual cheating. Now, we have had years of changes in the rules.

    People here can redesign the system and should try- a GS position paper submitted to ISU as a document from fans. With so many very bright posters/skaters past and present, I think y'all could come up with fan freindly system fair to the skaters. why not?
    Last edited by skateluvr; 02-15-2012 at 11:50 PM.

  10. #40
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    Sorry to go off topic but since Michelle has been brought up in this thread I have to respond.

    Sorry skateluvr I have to disagree with you about Michelle.

    A song For You ( a non jump Michelle)

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4MbfKSX10I[/url]

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    Chan is not the most likeable skater with a few years of comments. It is easier to like a HUMBLE GUY with extraordinary musical interpretation.
    Let me say some of my own feelings. My favorites are 1) Jeremy, 2) Chan, 3) Kozuka, accidently all of whom were at GPF 2008 held in Korea and I had never heard of any of them before.
    Back then, the Korean media were madly focused on ladies, where Yuna and Mao competed and about men, Chan was told in some articles that he was a young, promising skater who set the record in the previous comp(right?). I was not really a big fan of FS and though I wished Yuna would win(it turned out to be Mao's win), my good interest was more on men's field as I had always been.
    Chan skated very disappointing SP and LP and even he fell twice at gala. Especially, his SP was painful to watch, LP a little better but fell twice... he had no control of his jumps.

    If you have patience,
    Chan SP, 2008 GFP [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rnkzin5YYg[/url]
    Chan LP, 2008 GFP [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3k9PalpyGk&feature=related[/url]
    Chan EX, 2008 GFP [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcHQ2dJM6UQ&feature=related[/url]
    He said he was frustrated. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcHQ2dJM6UQ&feature=related[/url]

    I link this vids because I actually like these. Why? See warm hearted, enthusiastic audience and Patrick's reponses after the very disappointing performances. I don't know why but Korean audience liked him then. Or maybe they gave those big applause to every skater.
    What I liked was not his mistakes filled programs but his genuine smile after the disppointed look. Since then, I saw his natural smiles and laughs many times. I thought this was a good natured, nice kid.
    As you know, English is my third language but I read some controversial commens from him. However, I have never agreed with some who say he is an arrogant, spoiled brat. He is just prone to misunderstanding.
    I am not trying to say your feeling is wrong and I also like fair scoring.

  12. #42
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    GPF used to be Patrick's nemesis, worst of the season, partly because he didn't travel well. Now that he's a seasoned traveler, he wins GPF to serve notice and as a prelude to Worlds.

    Sunny, I think most open minded people can sense Patrick's jovial sincerity and total lack of maliciousness.

    eta. Haha, you have his TEB ex program with his earlier famous wall banging! He took down the board that time.

    etaa. The Koreans are such great fans. Anybody would be cheered up even after a bad skate.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 02-16-2012 at 12:00 AM.

  13. #43
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demarinis5 View Post
    Sorry to go off topic but since Michelle has been brought up in this thread I have to respond.

    Sorry skateluvr I have to disagree with you about Michelle.

    A song For You ( a non jump Michelle)

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4MbfKSX10I[/url]
    very nice-late in her career-never saw it before- I do miss the triples. But this is like most every Kwan skate-joyous, smiling, loving the applause, loving just to skate. MK has no bad skates that I can find. Is this superior artistically? No, and I love MK because of several comp. skates which were wonderful. Does she compare to Sasha with no jumps? Bobek? Katia? They would win. Just being honest though I enjoyed the program. Was this skated after she left Torino? Did MK do Champions on Ice in 2006? For me her last great skating was Tosca 2004. Her conviction and the footwork and utter confidence was breathtaking. I wish I had seen Lyra and Tosca in person. Thrilling!

  14. #44
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunny0760 View Post
    Let me say some of my own feelings. My favorites are 1) Jeremy, 2) Chan, 3) Kozuka, accidently all of whom were at GPF 2008 held in Korea and I had never heard of any of them before.
    Back then, the Korean media were madly focused on ladies, where Yuna and Mao competed and about men, Chan was told in some articles that he was a young, promising skater who set the record in the previous comp(right?). I was not really a big fan of FS and though I wished Yuna would win(it turned out to be Mao's win), my good interest was more on men's field as I had always been.
    Chan skated very disappointing SP and LP and even he fell twice at gala. Especially, his SP was painful to watch, LP a little better but fell twice... he had no control of his jumps.

    If you have patience,
    Chan SP, 2008 GFP [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rnkzin5YYg[/url]
    Chan LP, 2008 GFP [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3k9PalpyGk&feature=related[/url]
    Chan EX, 2008 GFP [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcHQ2dJM6UQ&feature=related[/url]
    He said he was frustrated. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcHQ2dJM6UQ&feature=related[/url]

    I link this vids because I actually like these. Why? See warm hearted, enthusiastic audience and Patrick's reponses after the very disappointing performances. I don't know why but Korean audience liked him then. Or maybe they gave those big applause to every skater.
    What I liked was not his mistakes filled programs but his genuine smile after the disppointed look. Since then, I saw his natural smiles and laughs many times. I thought this was a good natured, nice kid.
    As you know, English is my third language but I read some controversial commens from him. However, I have never agreed with some who say he is an arrogant, spoiled brat. He is just prone to misunderstanding.
    I am not trying to say your feeling is wrong and I also like fair scoring.
    The speed and flow are there and amazing from his youth. I enjoyed them for this alone. Patrick is boyishly charming with great smile. I am sure he is out growing the remarks that sounded arrogant. Most annoying to me was his attitude toward Plushenko as 'old' before Vancouver. And you know the results of Plu's career. A legend is to be admired. And coming from Asian, surprising, as my Asian friends revere the elders (deserve or not!) not to mention a legend in his own sport.

    But he is getting wiser re his interviews. Better for Pat!

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    The speed and flow are there and amazing from his youth. I enjoyed them for this alone. Patrick is boyishly charming with great smile. I am sure he is out growing the remarks that sounded arrogant. Most annoying to me was his attitude toward Plushenko as 'old' before Vancouver. And you know the results of Plu's career. A legend is to be admired. And coming from Asian, surprising, as my Asian friends revere the elders (deserve or not!) not to mention a legend in his own sport.

    But he is getting wiser re his interviews. Better for Pat!
    That's why I feel Patrick's words were so misunderstood and blown up. The headlines claimed he "blast" Plushenko as old whereas Patrick was talking about Plush's non COP friendly program but he couldn't tell Plush that because he was old. I think he meant he could not correct an elder because of the respect. In his life he has always been most respectful of the elders and "old" is not a negative word in Chinese culture.

    The Japanese too show great respect for age. I recall a report of an encounter with Kozuka at GPF at Beijing when Oda was asked by a fan to take a picture of her with Kozuka. Koz was very uncomfortable about it because Oda was older than he. Oda was more Westernized and didn't mind but Kozuka was apologetic.

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