Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

[spikydurian]

It is cute how the Chan squad is so insistent on declaring his wins with 4, 5, or 6 mistakes over good skaters who make 0 or 1 are all valid, how that doesnt mean he is a lock to win every event are events are guaranteed in his favor, how everything is perfect, blah, blah.. Just adoreable how one can be so delusional and persistent in repeating such delusion. Meanwhile figure skating audiences especialy in North America dwindle down to next to nothing. Soon the 12 member Chan quad (the only quad in the arean at that moment, as Chan per usual will have fallen or stumbled out of his) will hear chirps as they sit in an empty arena which they will be the only 12 people sitting at, insisting on inciting the same things as a 6 fall Chan is given a 200 LP at a competition.

How 'adorable' that there are so many personal and bitchy attacks on Chan and blaming him for the decline of figure skating and lack of men competitors in the USA. What a venomous lot. They have used you as a scapegoat, and you are right Chiddy. It doesn't pay to listen to people who are full of hatred and venom. The people who cares and kind are all that matters. As for the decline of figure skating, they won't be watching anymore and it doesn't matter. The sport will outlive fans as do all institutions. Skating will not die because of these people. People will.

[Orange Cat]

In response to the very first question/post... as much as I adore Takahashi and would watch him any minute of any day over PChiddy, possibility of falls included, I don't think so. It's awesome that he's motivated to work harder, and that he's trying to bring his quad back (hopefully he doesn't injure himself in the process), and I think he has a fabulous work ethic. But even so, I don't think so.

Chan is simply the better athlete. Even when he falls on his jumps they are massive and rotated, and Takahashi apparently has a tendency to UR his jumps (not that I can see it myself a lot of the time but tech callers do). The CoP values athleticism more than artistry- even the PCS are not 'artistic' marks per se, but depend more on skating skills and transitions, with performance and choreography only being a relative minority of the marks available.

That said, Dai will always hold a special place in my heart, along with that of many other people (or so I assume, having been a longtime lurker on this forum). And no matter how he places in competitions, I'll always rewatch his performances simply because he is enthralling to watch.

[ImaginaryPogue]

While I don't agree with pangtongfan, I'd argue his basic contention is correct: if people don't understand how insert-skater wins, they don't want to watch. Recall that the North American media went ape over the SLC scandal, where a clean but-technically easier S/P lost to B/S who had the more complicated program but a minor error. I can't blame people for not taking the time to learn the rules when what's presented doesn't appeal to them. I won't deny that the persistant attacks on Chan's skating/character/scores/life/the universe/everything as articulated by pangtonfan/let's talk/etc are frustrating to deal with, but I can't deny that there isn't a little part of me that wonders just how true their assertions are.

Then I see that Jeremy Abbott can score 77 w/ two falls, including a 42.91 on PCS and that causes nary a ripple. I can point out that Chan, with two falls, beat out a skater with one fall, by three points, which would suggest that he doesn't have a multi-fall advantage if another skater does skate well (Skate Canada, 2011), but I know exactly what glib, illogical riposte will be hurled back. So what's the point?

As for the initial question - Daisuke Takahashi has earned his spot as one of the most interesting and worthwhile figure skaters of our time. Maybe of all time. I hope he is able to close the gap - in his eyes as well as the judges' eyes. If he doesn't, I'll be more than impressed with what he has accomplished and his programs - Blues for Klook, Hip Hop Swan Lake, La Strada, Eye Tango, In the Garden of Souls - are masterpieces.

[fscric]

..... but I know exactly what glib, illogical riposte will be hurled back. So what's the point?

Agree.

[skateluvr]

The prize for this thread (last post) is rumored to be a week with pangtongfan, lol.

[Mathman]

Jeremy Abbott can score 77 w/ two falls, including a 42.91 on PCS[/url] and that causes nary a ripple.

Ahem. I have been splashing away on that thread.

Bad CoP, bad CoP!

[dorispulaski]

Unfortunately in skating, under COP and under 6.0, reputation judging is alive and well, "Winners win; losers lose." Jeremy at International Challenge, Daisuke at Japanese Nationals, and Patrick at Skate Canada have all benefited under COP.

It isn't something that makes me happy.

[spikydurian]

The prize for this thread (last post) is rumored to be a week with pangtongfan, lol.

Count me out. The feeling is obviously mutual (responding on behalf of pangtongfan).

[gkelly]

Unfortunately in skating, under COP and under 6.0, reputation judging is alive and well, "Winners win; losers lose." Jeremy at International Challenge, Daisuke at Japanese Nationals, and Patrick at Skate Canada have all benefited under COP.

It isn't something that makes me happy.

How much is reputation judging -- the judges "holding up" the skater -- and how much is quality of the skating and other elements even when one or two elements are failed --i.e., the skating holding up the skater.

If you look only at the number of mistakes, then you can't see a reason for a skater with failed elements to score higher than one who completes all elements, with comparable difficulty. But the judges are looking at a lot more than just number of mistakes. The best skaters build up a lot of points (or whatever you consider the equivalent under 6.0 scoring -- mental plus marks?) for everything good that they do, which gives them a cushion to absorb a few minuses for mistakes.

So those strongest skaters will often place well even with some mistakes and will place very well indeed when they don't make mistakes. That will earn them a good reputation. But that doesn't mean that the reputation alone is what earns them the high scores in later events with mistakes. The other strengths in the skating will usually be there to do earn the scores on merit.


That said, undoubtedly judges are subconsciously influenced by their past knowledge of a skater's abilities and expect to see more of the same. So there probably is some reputation effect in 6.0 judging and in PCS.

I just think that more often than not, when we see strong skaters place well with mistakes, the placements are largely earned and the reputation is largely lived up to, aside from those mistakes. Winners win because they're better at skills that might matter just as much or more than avoiding mistakes.

[Mathman]

I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to have a different scoring system for men's skating than for women's.

Jeremy spun around three-and-a-half times in the air and fell down. That was his quad. Then he spun around another three-and-a-half times and fell again. That was his triple Axel. Having gotten the big manly scoring elements out of the way, he proceeded to get high PCSs for gliding along looking pretty.

For some reason I don't mind when Carolina Kostner, Alissa Czisny, and Mao Asada get big points for gliding along looking pretty. This is in the tradition and spirit of figure skating. Or am I just being old-fashioned and chauvinistic?

[gkelly]

I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to have a different scoring system for men's skating than for women's.

Jeremy spun around three-and-a-half times in the air and fell down. That was his quad. Then he spun around another three-and-a-half times and fell again. That was his triple Axel. Having gotten the big manly scoring elements out of the way, he proceeded to get high PCSs for gliding along looking pretty.

For some reason I don't mind when Carolina Kostner, Alissa Czisny, and Mao Asada get big points for gliding along looking pretty. This is in the tradition and spirit of figure skating. Or am I just being old-fashioned and chauvinistic?

If you think that "looking pretty" is appropriate/should be rewarded for women and not for men, then yes I think you're being old-fashioned and sexist.

However, I take issue with the oversimplification that all the skaters are being rewarded for between the jumps is "looking pretty." That characterization does a real disservice to understanding what the skaters are doing and what the judges are judging. If you can't see the difference between difficult skating with difficult blade skills and challenges to the balance through the use of the full body, versus gliding on a simple edge in pretty position, then you lack some important knowledge to evaluate the skating.

The knowledge is out there if you want to learn. It's complicated and not easily suited to soundbites, and experts will disagree on the fine points. TV commentary is not designed to provide that kind of education, so you'd have to make a lot of effort on your own to access it.

If you choose not to make the effort to learn what the sport values and instead make up your own overly simplified value system, then you're not really in a position to object to the real results just because they don't conform to those made-up standards.

[callalily]

Unfortunately in skating, under COP and under 6.0, reputation judging is alive and well, "Winners win; losers lose." Jeremy at International Challenge, Daisuke at Japanese Nationals, and Patrick at Skate Canada have all benefited under COP.

As the saying goes, there is nothing new under the sun.

PCS (and to some extent GOE) is certainly influenced by a skater's reputation and previous results. But the same was true under 6.0 - I'd say it was much worse. Back then, once a skater established an ability to land the toughest jumps, their artistic impression marks soared - it was as simple as that. Did they suddenly become artistic? No, they just caught people's attention and "looked like winners", and the artistic impression marks went along for the ride. Back then, previous winners and medallists were cut a lot of slack. Their marks (both technical and artistic) usually remained high, even when they had an occasional "bad day at the office". That's just how it worked. That's why there were usually only 2 (or maybe 3) contenders for the top spot at major competitions. Look at the two-person rivaries that persisted for years - Boitano/Orser, Browning/Petrenko, etc. Today there are many skaters who can medal at major competitions, suggesting a much more level playing field. Top skaters with track records still receive some advantage, but not as much as under 6.0.

[mikeko666]

If you think that "looking pretty" is appropriate/should be rewarded for women and not for men, then yes I think you're being old-fashioned and sexist.

But that's reality in figure skating, especially for ladies, if you may not like it. Suzuki has been criticized for not being pretty enough, even in this forum. Figure skating is indeed old fashioned, that is another reason why it's losing its popularity, along with the judging system and boring music selection.

[skateluvr]

But beauty, body type, costume etc are in fact routinely rewarded with points or no points under 6.0 or CoP. This is the glamour aspect of the sport which we see in three disciplines. It isn't right, detracts from sport. That is why I would like to see a technical program and attempted to ask skaters especially and very knowledgeable fans about this and want to see (as in figures of old) skills assessed without the manipulative music on the emotions, quality of the cuts being judged, the costumes, some expensive (or notz) choreographers work and very expensive skating dresses. And the less perfect a body and face you have as female, the more your hair, makeup, costume get judged. Because it is very hard to make someone a princess who does not have the build or the face desired as skating changes thru the years. The glamour aspect of the sport has invaded the men's, as it once was limited to lots of rediculous costumes in pairs and ice dance in Europe and Russia. Many people look at skater x posing in heals, spandex and pompadour and get disgusted. There really should be standards about competition 'gear' as there was in the past, what is acceptable. The free program would have much more "freedom" but technical program should mean more than it currently does if FS is truly a sport first.

I think there should be deductions for overtly effeminate costumes. They don't help the sport in any way. I understand I have a conservative classical point of view. I just watched Brian Boitano skating his LP in 94. If it is a sport, than should we see spandex, illusion fabric, overtly sexual costumes in a technical program? I don't know about costume deductions, are they now a thing of the past? Dick Button looked like an athlete. Granted glamour is the ladies is a big draw in this fashion obsessed culture, but perhaps this needs to be rethought if the technical skate was just about pure skills/excellence and presentation. There is a lot of room for redesign to put the emphasis on sport. That being said, I did love seeing princess Kerrigan in her stunning Vera Wang in her free skate.

But I have always thought women and men skaters on the elite level should have different skills mastery as the goal and scored differently to reflect what is "excellent" or the ideal with safety and longevity for skaters being highly valued.

[Olympia]

Skateluvr, is the rule that the man must wear pants (as opposed to lycra or tights) still in effect? I know that it was for awhile.

I don't know how much it would help to make skating more like a sport. It is a sport already, but it's an odd one, like rhythmic gymnastics. If you've got music and ballet training, there's going to be a certain amount of slithering around. Well, isn't that what brings many of us to the sport in the first place? Otherwise you might as well divide it up into different skills and have separate events, the way they do with gymnastics: maybe a jump event, a spin event, a lift event, a throw event where height and length of throw were measured like the long jump...and we'd have to bring back school figures, I suppose. And then the competitors could all wear track suits. Sounds pretty dreary to me.