Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

**Olympia** · 03-13-2012, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Mathman

I always end up frustrated in these discussions because I cannot shake the feeling that something is amiss with the sport, but when someone asks, how would you change it, I come up short.

I think the real problem is this. The more I learn about skating the less enjoyable it is for me to watch it, especially the ladies discipline. I used to say, Wow, that was great (or at least, Aw, that was pretty). Now I am more likely to be thinking, "you call that an outside edge?" and ""hmm, I'll have to see the replay on that landing!"

On the other hand, I am starting to like ice dance more and more. Probably because I know the least about it (ignorance is bliss).

I like all of your (gkelly's) suggestions about possible changes to the ladies LP, especially about allowing more non-jump ways to earn points. It would be cool if they could find a way to bring back stuff like Mazurka jumps. Lengthening the time to four and a half minutes and removing the 80% PCSs factoring are worth considering, although I would prefer both men and women to do four minutes and cut down on the list of expected elements.

(Aside: In men's skating if there were fewer jumping passes then skaters would be better rewarded for triple-triples without the need for changing the base values, and skaters would not find themselves stymied by Zayak problems.)

The idea of combining Lutz and flip jumps into one category for Zayak purposes should be explored for ladies, IMHO. This might take the pressure off the technical specialists in making e calls. Outside edge = Lutz, inside edge = flip. Either one fills the slot for that type of jump and gets base value, plus GOE for a really distinct edge. No need for any such thing as a flutz. For a borderline edge that is neither fish nor fowl, same base value but the judges could take off negative GOE if they thought the take-off was weak.

I agree with most of your points. Maybe if the Russian baby ballerinas mature into unassailable champs and come to own the discipline, so that we see winner after winner after winner, we'll feel more comfortable with the new judging system. (Unless, of course, they grow to be adult size and can't skate to the specifications of the CoP.) But right now something about skating seems less enjoyable, especially with ladies' singles. A huge number of their countries' champions look just plain inept out on the ice. That's painful to watch. When someone as amazing as Mao Asada isn't able to flourish under this system, then the sport loses its luster to me. (I get that her jumps are in a bit of a dip. But her skills all around are incredible, and her jumps are pretty far up there in terms of quality, even now.) Math's idea of bringing back things like Mazurka jumps is intriguing as a way of fleshing out ladies' skating and providing more areas for judges' evaluation.

So, all right, the new system will require not just the body of a ten-year-old, it will also demand an early training so rigorous that girls won't be able to do anything else in life except train, and that's best done by a country with an organized, centralized program. But even with Russian training excellence, are we going to end up with a fleet of diminutive skaters chosen by doctors and coaches for their body type, because no one else can skate to those rules? I'd hate to see that. Skating will lose a lot of people who might have contributed legendary programs remembered for generations to come. We'll have perfect jumps, though, and can post and memorize the points scores.

**Mathman** · 03-13-2012, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Olympia

Skating will lose a lot of people who might have contributed legendary programs remembered for generations to come.

Three-quarters of my mind says, yes, this is the big problem. What mades figure skating a joy are the performances that touch our hearts, the programs that we remember long after we have forgotten who won this medal or that. Liz Manley's LP at the 1988 Olympics, Rudy Galindo's performance at 1996 U.S. Nationals.

But the other 25% of my mind says, well, in the CoP generation, in spite of everything, maybe enthusiastic fans of Yu-na Kim or Patrick Chan feel the same way about the performances that are out there now.

**lcd** · 03-13-2012, 07:00 PM

I "appreciate" the ease of Patrick's jumps and the speed of his skating and the appropriately generated genesis of his movements. BUT his skating performances overall just don't do much for me somehow. It would be asking a lot to get me to watch any of his programs more than once, which sounds harsh, but is just the way I experience his skating. Brilliant athlete and all that good stuff. Just never touches my heart.

**ImaginaryPogue** · 03-13-2012, 08:03 PM

Olympia, after the 2011 year and the way this season is heading, I'm a little surprised by your POV.

1. The top ladies skater is probably Carolina Kostner, who doesn't have the body of a ten year old, and is able to win because her skills all around are incredible, and her jumps are pretty far up there in terms of quality. Should she win Worlds, she'll be the oldest skater to do so since Slutskaya won her second title. Kostner is successful because she does skate to the rules.

2. Yes, Tukatmisheva did wonderfully on the GP circuit heralding the age of the Russian Baby Brigade. But we also saw Suzuki land her first triple-triple combination at age 26. Should she win, she'd be the oldest skate to win worlds since Butyrskaya.

3. Indeed, should the podium have three of: Czisny, Wagner, Kostner, Suzuki or Asada we'll have a podium full of ladies in their twenties

**deedee1** · 03-13-2012, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue

Olympia, after the 2011 year and the way this season is heading, I'm a little surprised by your POV.

1. The top ladies skater is probably Carolina Kostner, who doesn't have the body of a ten year old, and is able to win because her skills all around are incredible, and her jumps are pretty far up there in terms of quality. Should she win Worlds, she'll be the oldest skater to do so since Slutskaya won her second title. Kostner is successful because she does skate to the rules.

2. Yes, Tukatmisheva did wonderfully on the GP circuit heralding the age of the Russian Baby Brigade. But we also saw Suzuki land her first triple-triple combination at age 26. Should she win, she'd be the oldest skate to win worlds since Butyrskaya.

3. Indeed, should the podium have three of: Czisny, Wagner, Kostner, Suzuki or Asada we'll have a podium full of ladies in their twenties

I agree with both you and Olympia respectively.

What you wrote here, ImaginaryPogue is what I feel excited with ladies discipline this season; veteran female skaters doing so well, and what I am looking forward to happening come Worlds; they do have a realistic shot for a podium finish.

At the same time, what Olympia and Mathman pointed out reflects exactly my thoughts in general after the introduction of COP; the more I learn about rules, the less I got to enjoy performances itself...

**ImaginaryPogue** · 03-13-2012, 09:01 PM

And that, indeed, is a disappointment. I have to admit I feel wierd being the complete opposite, but I lucked out in a big way, I suppose.

**seniorita** · 03-14-2012, 08:23 AM

heralding..

nice verb!

**Skater Boy** · 03-14-2012, 02:19 PM

Considering it is a clean slate at world's I think if Daisuke skates his best and cleanly he has a reasonable shot at winning gold over Chan but if Chan does clean routines with the quads he will be hard to beat with his all around skills.

**let`s talk** · 03-15-2012, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Mathman

^ As I read the rule, it does not mean that the skater would still be upright (balanced on one toe

) if he took his hands off the ice. It talks about the majority of his weight being born by his hands.

Isn't it what I said? Or I probably didn't express myself well enough. I didn't say "be upright." I said "be on blades." It doesn't necessary mean "be upright". When they scored it as a non-fall, they told us that even if Patrick would move his hands off the ice, he would still stay in that horizontal position in the air and wouldn't fall because the majority of his weight would be supported by that one toe. LOL.

**Bluebonnet** · 03-20-2012, 10:17 AM

Takahashi is so smartly put it in a correct way about him and Patrick's skating which has been translated from Japanese in Takahashi fan thread.

I think his words settled all the dispute in this thread.

**let`s talk** · 03-20-2012, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Bluebonnet

Takahashi is so smartly put it in a correct way about him and Patrick's skating which has been translated from Japanese in Takahashi fan thread.

I think his words settled all the dispute in this thread.

You obviously have never read or watched any Dai's interviews in the past. He is always humble and he never praises himself (unlike Chan). And he always says that he is behind his rival, even when he wins with major points over him like it happened at NHK, where in the TV interview before the medal ceremony he was constantly praising Kozuka and almost excusing his own win. What his words settled is that he is a very nice guy. But there was never any dispute on it, neither in this thread nor anywhere else.

**Skater Boy** · 03-20-2012, 02:06 PM

I truly believe if the Tak can skate cleanly with the quad he has a chance at beating Chan. However, Chan has really closed the gap artistically and perhaps even on pcs and technically is more consistent (even his triple axel is getting better) so this might put more pressure on Tak. I think both these guys deserve wgm and ogm too bad only one medal.

**Dragonlady** · 03-20-2012, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Skater Boy

I truly believe if the Tak can skate cleanly with the quad he has a chance at beating Chan. However, Chan has really closed the gap artistically and perhaps even on pcs and technically is more consistent (even his triple axel is getting better) so this might put more pressure on Tak. I think both these guys deserve wgm and ogm too bad only one medal.

If Takahashi and Chan both skate clean, Takahashi has zero chance to beat Chan because the base mark for Daisuke's planned technical content in the LP is 10 points lower than Chan's. The ONLY way for Takahashi to beat Chan is for Chan to have multiple errors, especially on his big point jumping passes, in addition to Takahashi skating clean.