03-26-2012, 12:35 AM
Well, the fall penalty was applied to Kozuka. He received his lowest PCS of the season, 73.38 with one fall vs Takahashi's 86.90 with 3.
03-26-2012, 12:50 AM
Blue- I'm old, wink wink, so memory is not like yours, but I thought you were referring to an international skate where he was up against Chan, since that's the crux of the thread. Japanese Nationals and any nationals are a lovefest for skaters like Dai. I think Hanyu has yet to have such finesse to compete with Dai, but I think next year, hanyu will be getting higher scores as I said earlier in all non jumps elements. If Dai doesn't skate well at worlds, I think maybe (I'm not Japanese and don't read in Japanese) JSF will score him over Dai making him Japan's number 1 skater. Actually, I see this happeneing if Dai does not skate well, and score close to Chan. I think he can only expect the silver. It is how many points he will lose by to Chan that will get JSF to think about promoting hanyu, who is liklier to podium at Sochi than Dai. I'm not sure how the whole respect thing works with JSf, so I just speculate here. I will watch those skates tomorrow. I did not watch them last year. The problem with not seeing these competitions as they used to be televiesed in USA is that you watch the top skates (only ) on Youtube.
I tend to remember NA podiums than Japan. But next year, Hanyu will get the scores he deserves, in Japan and international comps. or closer, as he is THE ONE with OGM chance. I see Chan, Hanyu as most clear Sochi podium threats should they be healthy. Bronze I could never even guess at. Dai's sun is going down, i feel. he was great, still is, but age is against him.
03-26-2012, 01:01 PM
Well, regardless whether it's Japanese Nationals or it's international competitions, the point is Takahashi was the one who was held up by PCS most of the time. In fact, according to SF's compilation for this season here http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...at-Worlds-2012 , Patrick cannot even be called PCS skater given that his TES and PCS were usually so close (except one) and sometimes his PCS were lower than TES even at Canadian Nationals where he got over 200 in LP and 300 in total. His PCS were 5.47 points lower than TES in SP and 5.61 points lower than TES in LP.
Originally Posted by skateluvr
It has seemed being established that PCS is used as a place holder like in 6.0. Patrick was rarely held by PCS unreasonably this season except probably at TEB where I personally have no objection for his gold finish because the second place was Nan Song who was clearly artistically not in Patrick's league.
Last edited by Bluebonnet; 03-26-2012 at 01:16 PM.
03-26-2012, 04:41 PM
National results are more often than not rather sketchy. There's a reason why Nationals scores don't count towards the official SB and PB scores for skaters. But I do agree that Takahashi's marks were, ahem, handled with kid gloves for his Nationals LP. I highly doubt that he would receive such scores internationally.
Originally Posted by Bluebonnet
What I do not quite understand is how this proves your assertion that "Takahashi was the one who was held up by PCS most of the time." Takahashi has averaged in the 8-range of PCS the entire season, if you think he's held up by PCS, does that mean you think he deserves lower? If so, where would you place him in terms of PCS? Moreover, I'm not sure how a close numerical relationship between TES and PCS somehow means that a skater's PCS is totally deserved and means that he/she was not held up (or down) on the PCS mark. A skater can rack up huge TES by landing numerous quads, high-scoring triples, and level four elements, but this doesn't automatically mean that he deserves high PCS to match the TES. After all, the skater can mostly be doing two-foot skating, with bad choreography and zero emotion or performance skills while landing those high-octane jumps. Or conversely, a skater may not have a quad or a triple axel, but he has strong basic skating skills, with excellent choreography, lots of transitions and great performance skills. In this case, high PCS should surely be paired with lower TES. Given the current structure of CoP scoring, don't you think that for some skaters, a gap between TES and PCS is definitely merited? Just because the skater's PCS and TES are close doesn't mean it's right, just as a significant gap betwen PCS and TES doesn't automatically mean that a skater is held up or held down.
Last edited by evangeline; 03-26-2012 at 04:47 PM.
03-26-2012, 11:48 PM
Some people just believe that Chan got held up on PCs with mistakes, nobody else. Chan's the only one has multiple falls but nobody else
Originally Posted by Bluebonnet
03-27-2012, 12:17 AM
"Being held up" was a term often used to insinuate that Patrick was given high PCS to compensate for his low TES. The fact is his has the highest TES and his PCS are on par with or lower than his TES.
I happen to think most high PCS are deserved and the recipients are often my favorites. But if someone insists on saying Patrick is being held up by judges with high PCS, they should be made aware of the truth that it's some other beloved skaters who have consistently much higher PCS than TES, especially when they fall multiple times. Now these fans don't like the term so much.
03-27-2012, 12:27 AM
Call me crazy, I actually find that Chan's PCS is too low in 4CC. It's great to see him continue to improve on both PCS and TES.
03-27-2012, 12:32 AM
Well, I knew that I might have some explanation to do as soon as I posted my last post. I actually have no objection on your take in this post. I didn't mean to say that Takahashi was wrongfully held up in PCS other than in Japanese Nationals in which he should have been placed in the third in PCS. Internationally, Takahashi was held up by PCS because more than half of the score he earned were often from PCS, not from TES. In contrast to people saying Patrick was held up by PCS, I merely pointed out that Patrick earned his scores mainly from his TES, not PCS. In the meantime, I strongly believe that Patrick was as entitled as Takahashi for the PCS he has earned in the competitions this season.
Originally Posted by evangeline
TES is like hardware and PCS is like software because TES is more objective and PCS is more subjective. I don't think there was anything wrong to say that one was held up by PCS. Patrick's TEB score was also held up by PCS (correctly though to place him in the right place).
03-27-2012, 12:48 AM
Patrick indicated earlier his goals this season were to improve his artistry, his skating skills, spins, etc., basically all aspect of his skating. As it is, he didn't add another quad but all aspects of his program components are noticeably improved, which would have been unbelievable to me last year. Who would have thought his edges would be even deeper and his speed even faster with seemingly no effort? The way he flows over the ice is such beauty. And he has a strong and consistent 3A now. So it has been yet another year of raising the bar for himself and every skater. He keeps widening the gap even as his rivals keep chasing to close it.
Originally Posted by blainechan
03-27-2012, 11:26 PM
Yup, he has such wide gap in the score because of all his skating qualities. It's not just speed, it's effortless speed. It's not just edges, it's deep edges. It's not just great skating skill, it's great skating skill with full control of the blades. It's not just the jumps, but jumps with transition entrance and flow.
Originally Posted by SkateFiguring
That's why he got high scores. People who complain that his scores were inflated have failed or refused to see the quality of his skate.
Last edited by blainechan; 03-27-2012 at 11:28 PM.
04-07-2012, 12:05 PM
Bumping this thread up for a couple of reasons, we can discuss did Dai close the gap on Patrick, or maybe it should read did Hanyu close the gap on both Patrick and Dai?
Also isn't there supposed to be a prize for the person who writes the last post in this thread?
04-07-2012, 01:36 PM
Yeah! Lets get this party started.
Hany has caught up with Daisuke, Daisuke has shorten the gap but still needs another quad ,to increase his speed, pick music that has change of texture so it is easier for judges to pick up on his interpetations, Chan often skates to the beat of his music, and put transitions and jumps at character points of the music. If Daisuke team did the same thing, I am sure his PC's will inrease to 9's.
04-09-2012, 09:59 AM
I think Dai has closed up the gap between himself and Patrick a little bit by having quad in both SP and LP. But most significantly, Patrick has lost his BV to make the bar lower, not by planning, but by mistakes. Therefore, the same low BV tends not to be re-occuring. Even though there are so many things going on, it does seem that Patrick has gotten a one-fall cushion from the second best in the world like some people said before. I think the only way for any skaters, including Takahashi, to beat Patrick is to increase technical contents, in the meantime, keep the competitive PCS.
Originally Posted by demarinis5
As of your second question, what was the prize then? I thought it was who posted the last, whose favorite skater would win.
Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-09-2012 at 04:30 PM.
04-09-2012, 10:14 AM
I think it's a two-fall cushion. Patrick's mistakes in LP were equivalent to two falls. And the two point lead of his LP just cancels out Dai's mistakes in his LP.
Originally Posted by Bluebonnet
Last edited by Boeing787; 04-09-2012 at 10:28 AM.
04-09-2012, 03:01 PM
This delusional thread is still going on (the NO rivalry between Chan and Takahashi, where it has already been established Chan could skate half the program on his rear and still win over an already peaked Dai even skating his best). Many of you have too much time on your hands.