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Thread: Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    And I think there should be no points for falls!
    Indeed, rewarding failed jumps/elements produces one kind of "champion"--Champion of multiple failures, which certainly makes figure skating more like a "sport".

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Zero, or "no-score" or "no-dive" as they call it, dropping him (Matt Scoggin) from sixth to 10th place in the men's 10-meter platform at the 1992 Summer Olympics.
    Receiving a zero score for an element is not that uncommon. Here is another example: http://english.people.com.cn/200408/...17_153479.html
    In the same sense, this was not fair at all since human decides which was a fail and which was not. Anyway, there is no point arguing for diving on figure skating board. What I want to say is that the scoring system in diving is not flawless and it is not a standard for other sports.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    The same as in diving. If the skater didn't do that movement, he/she won't receive the difficulty value on it. It'll be 0.
    Good point. Not doing the required movement = receiving no value on that element.
    In diving, one will receive a "0-point call" (aka "no-dive" or "no-score") if the feet enter the water first in a head-first dive regardless how good his approach and flight are. In skating, does one receive zero point for a jump if he lands on the butts instead of blade(s)?
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 02-21-2012 at 07:00 PM.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    It's supposed to be like this. Otherwise, an all triple skater would easily outskate a quad skater. A double jump skater would easily outskate a triple jump skater, and so on...
    If a skater planned 7 triples and flubbed all of them, that skater should lose to a skater who planned seven doubles and landed them all.

    If a skater planned seven quads and fell on all of them, that skater should lose to a skater who planned seven triples and landed them all.

    Would this encourage a skater to omit the quad? No, it would encourage him to land it.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    He didn't say that? Well, my recollection is very vague,...
    Possibly you are remembering the press conference after Patrick won Skate Canada two years ago despite several falls, where he said something along the lines of, "Well, the judges must have liked the rest of my skating." Unkind critics pounced on this as meaning, "it doesn't matter how many times I fall, I've got the judges in my pocket."

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Really!? When did CoP begin to privilege difficulty before quality? After changes made post-Vancouver? Is this rule definitely applicable to all skaters or only to some skaters?
    The rules apply the same to all skaters.

    However, skaters who are attempting quads get more benefit than skaters who don't attempt them, and skaters who rotate the quad attempts get more benefit than those whose attempts are called as underrotated or downgraded.

    Also, if the difference in difficulty level is high enough it can outweigh smaller differences in quality -- under any judging system, although the specifics will vary, just as they will vary with a different Scale of Values under the same IJS rules.

    And if the quality of everything else is good enough, that can outweigh the points lost by a few major mistakes. The amount of points lost to those mistakes will vary depending on which year's Scale of Values is in effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    If a skater planned 7 triples and flubbed all of them, that skater should lose to a skater who planned seven doubles and landed them all.
    Assuming everything else is comparable, yes. And the way the SoV is set up, that would be the case.

    However, to take a somewhat extreme example, suppose a skater of poor novice quality who deserves PCS in the low 3s and executes level 1 spins and steps with 0 or negative GOE, but 7 clean double jumps. And a skater of pretty good senior quality who deserves PCS in the 6s executes more difficult spins and steps with quality worthy of positive GOEs, and flubs 7 attempted triple jumps.

    It's certainly possible in that situation that the second skater would win. (How serious are the flubs? What scoring system are we using? If IJS, what year's rules and SoV?)

    In theory skaters that far apart in basic skating ability shouldn't be competing at the same competition, but it will happen sometimes. You could easily see a similar range of PCS and jumps attempted at a JGP event or at a US regional event.

    However, if the skater with the doubles has much stronger skating and spins and high-quality doubles, s/he could conceivably beat even a skater who stands up on 7 rotated but mildly flubbed triples, let alone underrotated ones.

    On the other hand, because of the high values of quads even with falls, if one skater lands 7 clean triples and another falls on 7 rotated quads, the quad guy is pretty much guaranteed to win. Especially since it's unlikely that a skater capable of attempting 7 quads would have weak skating skills.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    because of the high values of quads even with falls, if one skater lands 7 clean triples and another falls on 7 rotated quads, the quad guy is pretty much guaranteed to win.
    And I would call that winner Champion of Perpetual Failures--failing to land jumps cleanly 7 times in a row.

  8. #113
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    So that's an argument in favor of increasing the value of the negative GOEs on quads so that failing to land them will not net lots of points.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    So are you saying that Abbot, Oda and Denis Ten have done performances where they had two falls and there was no difference in PCS they got for a performance they did without falls on previous occasions, and that they beat out a skater of relatively similar calibre who skated with no falls at the competition and won?
    The former and I'm specifically referring to skates from the same season.

    Oda
    GPF 2010 LP (two falls) - 78.64 8.14 7.64 7.68 7.93 7.93
    WC 2011 LP (no falls) - 78.44 8.29 7.71 7.79 7.75 7.68

    Oda did have a massive error at Worlds, but it was one of those counting errors that only destroyed the value of his skate (by 20 points) but was still a clean skate

    I could post more examples if you like, but would you assert that the above example is a demonstration of the Japanese federation politicking?

  10. #115
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    Another advantage that a skater has if he can at least make a reasonable attempt at a quad is that he is saved from having to waste jumping passes on mere double Axels.

    For instance, suppose a skater plans

    3A
    3S
    3A+3T
    3F+2T
    3Lo
    3Lz+2t
    3F

    Now what? He has a choice between his signature 4T< (fall) and a 2A, both of which net him 3.3 points. Might as well try the quad and hope to get lucky.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    The former and I'm specifically referring to skates from the same season.

    Oda
    GPF 2010 LP (two falls) - 78.64 8.14 7.64 7.68 7.93 7.93
    WC 2011 LP (no falls) - 78.44 8.29 7.71 7.79 7.75 7.68

    Oda did have a massive error at Worlds, but it was one of those counting errors that only destroyed the value of his skate (by 20 points) but was still a clean skate

    I could post more examples if you like, but would you assert that the above example is a demonstration of the Japanese federation politicking?
    He didn't win the competition with the two falls, right? The score did not reflect, in relative terms to the other scores of the night, that he outskated another skater with no falls? I have never read on these boards that Oda is a judges favorite or that they he asserts judges love him in interviews (only that he's a mental case who can't count), so I am not inclined to think that.

    I originally brought up Patrick to talk about the impact of what is written on these board to talk about skater's marketability. I have realized that my recollection of what Patrick said was not sound upon being questioned, and that has made me rethink Patrick. However, many will not think so vigorously. I might venture to suggest that if a skater well-suited to CoP wins with multiple falls, it looks like s/he won politically.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    There will always be sour grapes who deem the judging unfair, no matter when, which system, or who wins. You believe in statements you make as undebatable truths but they are not necessarily so. E.g. Patrick Chan, without any sex appeal according to you, is ranked higher as a desirable date than Matt Damon, Rafael Nadal, Leonardo de Caprio, Hugh Jackman, and other half naked hunks, according to Rankopedia. (It's nice to have a fan thread for such information. ) eta. He's also one of the Most Desirable Men Alive! This is a fun site to poke around.
    Dai cannot win even if he wins, and I find it hysterical all you say about Chan in Rankopedia. Is it possible the Chinese community and especially smitten teenage girls are voting multiple times? As an adult, I find Chan adorable, but sexy? LOL Beauty/sex appeal is in the eyes of the beholder of course. I will check out the site. Online voting is the reson why good singers get sent home on American Idol and cute, untalented singers get the prize on Idol. More sexy and desireable than Matt Damon? Well, I guess no one over 22 is voting! LOL.

    I'm still laughing at the comment Johhny Weir is more attractive than Evan and that Evan bought his medal. He simply skated the best in Vancouver. This thread is getting very funny and people are very nationalistic when it comes to Dai and Pat. We all know Pat likely not definitely, but likely, has Sochi in the bag, with a fall cushion, unless the scoring system changes radically. Not much to discuss. Let's all put money on it. Then we can talk. Hanyu is the one who might upset the apple cart. Olympic judges are not as generous as at Nationals, Euros, GP events and even Worlds which isn't televised in America now. Since 2002, Olympics is different. Honesty and fairness are more scrutinized .2006 and 2010 Podiums were right on. Less cheating since Salt Lake scandal, but it still exists. Sochi Olympics can't afford Chan gate. Skating in Russia and at Olympics will be hardest for him. And who knows who might be World Champion in 2013? I have my money on Hanyu. Russian Olympics will fight Chanflation and any possible Changate. Maybe Artur is next champion. Should we be discussing if Artur can catch up with Chan by Sochi? Sad to say Dai is getting older. Time is his enemy.
    Last edited by skateluvr; 02-21-2012 at 09:30 PM.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I might venture to suggest that if a skater well-suited to CoP wins with multiple falls, it looks like s/he won politically.
    It might produce that reaction in some fans. Others might think instead, "What a goofy scoring system!"

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    But sadly anyone who thinks Dai can "catch up" is a die hard Dai fan, for whatever reason. It is enough for me to see him still do a lot of beautiful skating despite the jump errors. There should be another thread next season called, Can hanyu steal the gold from Patrick? that is possible, given the mega talented 17 year old.
    Well, I am a die-hard Dai fan...like you, I just love to watch him skate. I can't guess at what will happen in Sochi, even with all the wonderful decimals we now have. The future is as slippery as ice. Will Hanyu grow into his talent? Will Patrick exceed even his own high standards? Will Daisuke surprise everyone and get his quads back? Will Gachinsky rise to the occasion? I don't think any amount of statistical analysis can tell us anything more than a probability. The one thing I really hope for (besides the near-impossible of Daisuke winning the OGM--hey, dreams cost nothing!) is that all of these skaters are at Sochi, healthy and strong, along with Plushenko and three great Americans, and that they all skate lights out. I'm greedy. I want to watch 'em all be knockouts.

  15. #120
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    smitten teenage girls are voting multiple times?
    Go Patrick!

    Anyway...I think one of the problems is that the fans have no way of being aware of or appreciating all the things that Patrick does better than other skaters. People generally feel that if someone is good enough to be in the top flight at the World Championship, then that skater automatically has solid skating skills, that he moves with grace and assurance, that he is attempting hard jumps, and so on. So what is there to judge between them except who stays upright and who doesn't?

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