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Thread: Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

  1. #121
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Patrick has the fastest, most amazing little feet. Right now, blazing speed, awesome transitions, great programs with jumps out of nowhere. We'd all be applauding endlessly except for the rules that allow the guy to splat and win. I think even general fans can see the speed with which he skates and does this very difficult footwork. There is a huge difference in speed between him and everyone else. What is the likelihood they will change the scoring re jumps which seems to upset many fans, CoP experts or not?

    Will they see they must do this for the coming season? They seem very stupid to me, whoever thought CoP would make better skaters and revive fans in NA and Europe. Caro dumbs down her jump content, skates fast and does great in betweens, wins. Patrick falls twice yet wins because of "all else." ????? 6.0 was understandable, and the usually the best jumper/skaters won in singles. Fans got it. So now we see better blade to ice skills, but I need to read this forum and ask skaters and lay experts in CoP (or read pages of protocols and do math (ick! lol) to explain the results. Ok so that's a bit exaggerated, after watching for so long, you get a little idea of what is happening.

    A lot of people had no clue why Yuna won and not Mao, and had to rely on no info from Scott or Sandra except to hear them say "Yuna left Mao in the dust." Thank you Scott, how edifying. And how much did they pay him for his "expert" commentary? At least they explain the crazy CoP on japanese television, but I don't speak Japanese. GS forum seemed to explain it all. The commentators provide color and no facts, but maybe the whole thing just gives them a headache.

    If people do not understand, or think it is blatantly unfair, they will turn the chanel. I think that is 99% of the viewing public.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    He didn't win the competition with the two falls, right? The score did not reflect, in relative terms to the other scores of the night, that he outskated another skater with no falls? I have never read on these boards that Oda is a judges favorite or that they he asserts judges love him in interviews (only that he's a mental case who can't count), so I am not inclined to think that.

    I originally brought up Patrick to talk about the impact of what is written on these board to talk about skater's marketability. I have realized that my recollection of what Patrick said was not sound upon being questioned, and that has made me rethink Patrick. However, many will not think so vigorously. I might venture to suggest that if a skater well-suited to CoP wins with multiple falls, it looks like s/he won politically.
    He did beat Kozuka who had no falls.

    In general, I have a hard time believing what's written about here affects a skater's marketability (otherwise, we'd be a lot closer to libel/slander laws than we'd like).

    a) I think Chan's marketability will be less than Dai's merely because figure skating is huge right now in Japan, compared to Canada. Additionally, I'd argue that Japan is a more celebrity-endorsement culture than Canada (how many movie stars go there to make a commercial for millions of dollars). Outside of Sidney Crosby, I can't think of any major Canadian athlete with an epic endorsement deal. Even Virtue/Moir's Roots deal was temporary.

    b) I do agree that if a skater wins a competition with multiple falls, the presumption of politicking will leap to the forefront. Heck, 2002 SLC had that presumption for some people based on a single error. I don't think the ISU realizes how lucky it was in Turin and Vancouver.

  3. #123
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    If people do not understand, or think it is blatantly unfair, they will turn the chanel. I think that is 99% of the viewing public.
    It might possibly create something like the Trixie Schuba/Janet Lynn phenomenon. Trixie Schuba got gold but Janet Lynn was more beloved.

  4. #124
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Even Virtue/Moir's Roots deal was temporary.
    Virtue/Moir appeared in a Toyota commercial in Japan:

    http://www.fanpop.com/spots/tessa-vi...ota-alphard-cm

    Janet Lynn appeared in a commercial in Japan as well:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwzZM9lXv44 (see from 6:01)
    Last edited by hurrah; 02-21-2012 at 10:28 PM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post

    On the other hand, because of the high values of quads even with falls, if one skater lands 7 clean triples and another falls on 7 rotated quads, the quad guy is pretty much guaranteed to win. Especially since it's unlikely that a skater capable of attempting 7 quads would have weak skating skills.

    Oh another thread turns into a CoP debate. I can't turn away, but it's hard to watch. Just like the US Congress, though I think we're not quite so entrenched in our ideas.

    I could imagine a skater with strong acrobatic skills, but weak skating skills (the Surya Bonaly of the twenty-teens?), rotating, but not landing, or executing imperfectly, many quads and triples. If that skater wins over one with strong skating skills, but fewer high value jumps attempted, I will really wonder what is going on. Fortunately we're not there now.

    Personally I'm OK with a fully rotated quad that ends in a fall being worth more or about the same as +0 triple. Should be worth less then a +3 triple.

    To me it get's much harder when it comes to spins and step sequences. While technical elements, they have much more opportunity to add to the presentation/choreography/emotion/magic of a program as compared to jumps. Here is where I see CoP valuing difficulty and complexity over quality. I know that magic and emotion are not elements of the PCSs or GoEs, but they're part of why I watch skating and what sets it apart from other sports
    Last edited by ivy; 02-21-2012 at 10:38 PM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Virtue/Moir appeared in a Toyota commercial in Japan:

    http://www.fanpop.com/spots/tessa-vi...ota-alphard-cm
    Cool! However, as near as I can tell, they didn't appear in any commercials in Canada (prove me wrong, peoples!) which merely reaffirms my point.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Cool! However, as near as I can tell, they didn't appear in any commercials in Canada (prove me wrong, peoples!) which merely reaffirms my point.
    So I Googled "Virtue and Moir ad," but all I got was page after page of the Facebook group "Addicted to Virtue and Moir."

  8. #128
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    For those who insist that the sins of winning with falls and unaffected Performance values are unique to COP and never an issue under 6.0, let's look at Plushenko's 2004 Worlds FS and the results.

    He had impressive big jumps. Skating was slow and footwork would be leveled very low by today's standard, but that was then. He fell at the take off of a Loop jump but received mostly 5.9 technical scores and, most tellingly, a bunch of 6.0 for Presentation. Even the gushing commentators decided that it was a good fall with no effect on the performance. Judges obviously thought it had zero effect. Could this have happened under COP? Could someone competing today receive close to perfect technical scores with a fall on a completely missed jump? Could someone get 10.0 for Performance/Execution with a fall? It hasn't happened yet. In fact, no Man has yet become a World Champion with a fall under COP.

    The tone and frequency of assumptions and baseless accusations on skating boards create false impressions contrary to reality and facts, whether about the scoring systems or Chan's character and the way he is scored compared to others.

    Editing to ask: Do you think a fall after fully rotating and landing a quad equals a fall at take off of a jump? Do they deserve the same value, i.e. a big Zero?
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 02-21-2012 at 11:23 PM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I do agree that what Daisuke has is so extraordinary that there ought to be a way to reward that aspect of skating more lavishly. I hope his quads return dependably, but he's already amazing to watch, and if he comes in second rather than first, I'll still be thrilled. I'm just happy I get to see him at his best, and that he keeps improving. That was supposed to be a career-ending injury. Thank goodness it wasn't, and one of the things that makes Dai so appealing is that he didn't make his comeback out of sheer luck. Can you imagine the hard work he put in? No wonder he's a rock star in Japan.
    I completely agree that fans are so happy just to watch him to skate. As a matter of fact, I had a chance to talk to Utako sensei at 4CC and told her that I am always moved by his performance, even though there is no quad. Utako sensei said that Dai's real goal is Sochi, so it does not matter that much that he is struggling right now. She firmly believes that quads will be back and Dai is in the right direction.

    I heard that Dai spends 2 hours everyday now just for stretching. He has become much more conscious of his body positions that it showed so beautifully in the movement of his SP at NHK.

    BTW there is a comment that Dai won with three falls somewhere, but it is not accurate. He did not win Free at all, I guess he was the third. He won the comp because of his 10 points lead on short program which he skated perfectly with 4t 3t combo.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Patrick is good-looking enough in a conventional sense, but he doesn’t have sex appeal.
    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    As an adult, I find Chan adorable, but sexy? LOL Beauty/sex appeal is in the eyes of the beholder of course.
    I can totally see Patrick's sex appeal attracting so many girls.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 02-22-2012 at 12:19 AM.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    He fell at the take off of a Loop jump but received mostly 5.9 technical scores and, most tellingly, a bunch of 6.0 for Presentation...Judges obviously thought it had zero effect. Could this have happened under COP?
    The 6.0 system was a "norm-referenced" measurement. The marks were used to help the judges to differentiate the ranking or ordinal of each skater. Brian Joubert, who skated before Plushenko, already received mostly 5.8s for Techniques and many 5.9s for Presentation. The 5.9s in Techniques and 6.0s in Presentation Plushenko received meant nothing but "higher than Joubert's".
    The CoP, on the other hand, is a "criterion-referenced" measurement. It specifies criteria (particular features and movements) required to obtain a certain level and GOE in each element. Receiving 10 points for PE under the CoP means "Perfect Presentation". Unlike the NJS, a perfect score under the old system does not necessarily mean "perfect".

  12. #132
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I can totally see Patrick's sex appeal attracting so many girls.
    He's far better looking than my next door neighbour, but those photos are mostly yuck. (One where his face is all wrinkley is not sexy but is a nice photo.)

    Sexy Dai:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lADgrlPgnCU
    Last edited by hurrah; 02-22-2012 at 12:56 AM.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    He's far better looking than my next door neighbour, but those photos are mostly yuck. (One where his face is all wrinkley is not sexy but is a nice photo.)
    That says a lot about some of the Takahashi fans.

  14. #134
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    That says a lot about some of the Takahashi fans.
    Hey, I didn't say Patrick Chan was yuck. I said the photos were mostly yuck. Whoever did the photo shoot could have done a better job.
    Check out the photos of Dai done by an amateur fan provided above. Who did a better job?

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    Are we talking about skaters' sex appeal or are we talking about the photographers' job quality?

    No, Takahashi is not sexy. He assembled a bunch of extremes both in his appearance and in his movements.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 02-22-2012 at 01:48 AM.

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