International Challenge Cup - The Hague, Mar 8-11 | Page 4 | Golden Skate

International Challenge Cup - The Hague, Mar 8-11

Sjs5572

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 27, 2012
I just took a look at the ladies' protocols. I realize that Carolina has excellent spins and skating skills, but a 3t2t combo and 3lp befits a novice skater. The juniors are even required to do a lutz this year in the sp. I hope COP in the future will create a bigger differential between triple jumps. Furthermore, the senior LP should give a bonus to skaters who fully rotate all five triples.
 

Mao88

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Result of Ladies Short Program and Protocols

1 Carolina KOSTNER ITA 64.89 (30.77 34.12 0.00)
2 Alissa CZISNY USA 59.82 (29.06 31.76 1.00)
3 Valentina MARCHEI ITA 57.55 (30.61 26.94 0.00)
4 Myriam LEUENBERGER SUI 48.31 (27.03 21.28 0.00)
5 Lena MARROCCO FRA 47.76 (26.74 21.02 0.00)
6 Kerstin FRANK AUT 47.66 (28.20 19.46 0.00)
7 Haruna SUZUKI JPN 46.44 (23.04 23.40 0.00)
8 Viktoria HELGESSON SWE 45.63 (20.03 26.60 1.00)
9 Manouk GIJSMAN NED 45.31 (25.53 19.78 0.00)
10 Fleur MAXWELL LUX 45.14 (24.80 21.34 1.00)
11 Romy BÜHLER SUI 43.84 (24.56 19.28 0.00)
12 Cecillia TÖRN FIN 42.92 (22.44 20.48 0.00)
13 Anne Line GJERSEM NOR 42.06 (22.40 19.66 0.00)
14 Henriikka HIETANIEMI FIN 40.07 (22.07 18.00 0.00)
15 Rosaliina KUPARINEN FIN 38.90 (21.10 19.80 2.00)
16 Belinda SCHÖNBERGER AUT 37.72 (21.60 16.12 0.00)
17 Kana MURAMOTO JPN 37.16 (17.82 20.34 1.00)
18 Isabel DRESCHER GER 36.98 (20.34 16.64 0.00)
19 Eva LIM NED 35.29 (17.57 17.72 0.00)
20 Jennifer URBAN GER 33.64 (17.50 17.14 1.00)
21 Sandy HOFFMANN GER 32.47 (16.53 16.94 1.00)
22 Michelle COUWENBERG NED 30.83 (14.77 17.06 1.00)
23 Dasa GRM SLO 30.19 (14.87 16.32 1.00)
24 Ami PAREKH IND 29.40 (16.40 16.00 3.00)
 
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Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
I pray that the Juniors coming up next year will up the technical ante in Seniors because Carolina is doing 1980's jump content and is winning. Older skaters like Carolina and Alissa might be in a bit of trouble as the Juniors get more experience.
 

cjuarez

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 28, 2005
Congratulations to Leah Keiser on her first place, it seems she had trouble on her flip toe combo, and her score is not as high as she can but I hope she has a great free skate, I like her skating alot!
 

Mao88

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
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macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
carolina gets a 64 with a 3T+2T and a 3L? i know she had high PCS but i feel the judges were quite generous in that aspect...
 

skateflower

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
carolina gets a 64 with a 3T+2T and a 3L? i know she had high PCS but i feel the judges were quite generous in that aspect...

Pathetic! I can't stand Carolina for her being overscored repeatedly with a novice level jump layout. She has been quite 'consistent' and 'successful' for the past 2 years by massively scaling down the jump difficulty. It's beyond pathetic.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Congratulations to Leah Keiser on her first place, it seems she had trouble on her flip toe combo, and her score is not as high as she can but I hope she has a great free skate, I like her skating alot!

Welcome to Golden Skate, cjuarez! We hope you post long and often.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
He gave a bad skate. The CoP says he gave a good skate.

I suggest watching starting after the falls and telling me what's bad about that part of the performance.
For comparison you might want to watch the other top guys starting with their third elements.

We've already discussed elsewhere the decision by the ISU for quads and triple axels with falls still to earn several points of positive TES. If those positive points were fewer, then this performance would have fewer total points. Would something like 71 instead of 77 seem more appropriate? I think the negative GOEs are the place to penalize the failures more severely. But the guys who actually try these jumps and know how hard they are feel differently.

I just took a look at the ladies' protocols. I realize that Carolina has excellent spins and skating skills, but a 3t2t combo and 3lp befits a novice skater. The juniors are even required to do a lutz this year in the sp.

Pathetic! I can't stand Carolina for her being overscored repeatedly with a novice level jump layout.

You do realize that novice skaters are allowed to do only double jumps and single axels in their short programs, and that juniors are allowed to do double-double combinations and double lutz out of steps.

The stronger jumpers at those levels go for the triples, but it's not required. Seniors are required to do triples. Kostner met that requirement, with lesser difficulty than most successful seniors but better quality than many.

Often the most talented jumpers get their triples by early teens and are including them at novice or junior level. Because of the way women mature physically, it's pretty normal for senior ladies to be doing the same jumps they were doing at lower levels, or less. To remain competitive, they need to compensate for any loss in jump content with improvements in other areas. Some succeed and sustain long careers; others fade away as new youngsters take a turn in the spotlight during a brief athletic peak. That's the story of women's skating 30-40 years, since triple jumps started playing a part.


I pray that the Juniors coming up next year will up the technical ante in Seniors because Carolina is doing 1980's jump content and is winning.

More hyperbole.

No one was doing two triples in the short program in the 1980s because the rules only allowed one.
In ladies' long programs, four different triples was extremely rare in the 1980s and until 1988 I think Liz Manley was the only medalist who accomplished that.

Older skaters like Carolina and Alissa might be in a bit of trouble as the Juniors get more experience.

That's always how it works, the younger generation overtakes the older. How quickly it happens depends partly on the specific skaters in each cohort, and how well the older ones hold onto their skills vs. how quickly the younger ones develop theirs.

carolina gets a 64 with a 3T+2T and a 3L? i know she had high PCS but i feel the judges were quite generous in that aspect...

Yes, it does seem that the judges at this event were generous with the top PCS. Perhaps to reflect the difference in quality between the top world-medal-contender seniors competing at this event vs. a larger group of average or below-average seniors.
 

amc987

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Does anyone else think that Alissa needs to ditch the 3 Loop, forget the 3Z/3T attempt in the short program, and put her 3 Flip back in?? I was glancing at the protocols and she gets negative GOE on the loop as well. I realize that sometimes she lips and gets an "e" call on the flip, but she'd have to garner more points for that than she would with the loop, right? Similarly, the 3Z/3T seems like it isn't going to happen this year, but she does a lovely 3Z/2T, usually with positive GOE. Altering her jumps doesn't seem worth it, especially because the only way anyone other than Kostner and Suzuki can beat her in the short is with a 3/3. I don't really see that happening for Leonova or Wagner either, so what's the point of Alissa changing her jump content?!?
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
I pray that the Juniors coming up next year will up the technical ante in Seniors because Carolina is doing 1980's jump content and is winning. Older skaters like Carolina and Alissa might be in a bit of trouble as the Juniors get more experience.

ikr, Carolina's set of jump arsenals are laughable.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Pathetic! I can't stand Carolina for her being overscored repeatedly with a novice level jump layout. She has been quite 'consistent' and 'successful' for the past 2 years by massively scaling down the jump difficulty. It's beyond pathetic.
No, whining about it on a skating forum is pathetic. Kostner started 2010-11 injured and scaled down her jump content because she wasn't allowed to train 3F and 3Lz. She did eventually bring back the flip, but the lutz remains an issue. That's one jump. How many ladies are doing all the jumps and doing them right? How many ladies are as strong across the board as Carolina is? It used to be that people complained that Kostner was winning with messy skates. Now that she's winning with clean but simpler skates people are still complaining. Are the other ladies skating well enough that her results should be questioned? No, they aren't. Go read gkelly's post; that's a very good explanation of Kostner's scores.

Let's see if the juniors so many seem excited about can have anywhere near the career Kostner has had.

And I must say, the most mystifying scoring from yesterday is Contesti's PCS. He has a very limited range as a performer and nowhere near the skating skills Kostner does, yet he got the third highest men's PCS - higher than Joubert and almost as good as Amodio's! Where the judges even paying attention?
 

Nadine

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
Videos - Mens Short Program

1. Florent AMODIO (FRA)
2. Brian JOUBERT (FRA)
3. Jeremy ABBOTT (USA) and 2nd Copy
4. Samuel CONTESTI (ITA)
5. Jorik HENDRICKX (BEL)
6. Ivan BARIEV (RUS) and 2nd Copy
7. Peter LIEBERS (GER)
8. Laurent ALVAREZ (SUI)
10. Kim LUCINE (MON)
13. Julian LAGUS (FIN)
14. David RICHARDSON (GBR)
15. Taras RAJEC (SVK)
16. Viktor ZUBIK (FIN)

Further videos being uploaded here and here.



Thanks for the videos, just watched the top 4. :)

Aye yi yi *smacks self on forehead* :bang: This is in regards to Jeremy's falls. Rewarding falls is rewarding failure, and that's just what it was. All the smoke & mirrors of COP does not fool even the common layperson, a fall is a fall is a fall. Diving, gymnastics, ballet, et al don't reward falls. Falls is failure, plain & simple. Even for my favorite American man, Jeremy Abbott.

The only routine I honestly enjoyed was Samuel Contesti of Italy. He's a natural jumper and his 3A was HUGE, but alas he came down on two feet, but made up for that with the beautiful 3Z/3T & 3F, and a nice program that got the crowding going a bit.

Brian Joubert could do sooo soooo much better with a better routine because imho when he skates clean he should always defeat Amodio, whom reminds me of Nobunari Oda of Japan (no stretch, no line, no presence nor command of the ice), whereas Brian has all these things. What he lacked here was a good routine, as well as turnouts on both of his quads and the height on his 3A was not that great, just okay. Mediocre performance by him. I suggest skating clean first & foremost, like how Evan Lysacek did at the 2010 Olympics. A clean performance will win out over a more difficult one, so I say drop the quad, or at the very least drop at least one quad. Skate C-L-E-A-N (& bring back "Once Upon A Time in Mexico")!

This is how I would have placed them:

1.) Florent Amodio - 4S(turnuot), 3Z/3T(beautiful), 3A(turnout). 79 pts.
2.) Brian Joubert - 4T/2T(turnout), 4S(turnout), 3A(okay, nothing special). 77 pts.
3.) Samuel Contesti - 3Z/3T(beautiful), 3A(huge, but came down on 2ft.), 3F (nice & big). 76 pts.
4.) Jeremy Abbott - 4T(UR & Fall), 3A(Fall), 3Z/3T (nice). Also he's an artist, but falls are falls are falls. 74 pts.

Hmmm, having a hard time judging 2nd & 3rd (& even 1st) actually because I really did enjoy Samuel Contesti's routine, but the messy quads I suppose equal out Samuel's messy 3A. Oh well. :eek:hwell:

Now just waiting to see Carolina's & Alissa's programs. :)

All in all though I'm okay with the scores and the placements, being that this is just a low-ranked B competition, and therefore the scores are relative and reflect this. In fact they're lucky to have a few contenders for Worlds even show up, even though none of them are in top form. :( And I'm sure Alissa knows that this Worlds will be her best shot at a World Medal, Carolina not so much because Carolina does have 3/3 combos. in her arsenal and she already has two World Medals, but even Carolina must know that this is her best shot at finally winning Worlds! No Miki Ando with her consistent huge 3/3 combos., nor Yuna Kim whom is in a class all her own (simply the best), and alas a Mao Asada that is nowhere near her 2010 Olympic form. So that leaves the field literally WIDE OPEN. The only question is whom will step up to the plate and hit a home run. :cool:
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I have to disagree. He would have needed to score 90 + for cop to say he gave a good skate., 70 + are now just ok skates

That used to be the case when there were 2 step sequences in the men's SP, but now, 90+ is very rare. I'd say: 80+ is great, 75-80 is quite good, 70-75 is solid. A score of 77 likely wouldn't be down as low as 15th for the SP at Worlds, more like top 5-10. With the changes to the programs, 85 is the new 90 for men and 65 is the new 70 for women, I'd say.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
The distinction about "medallists" in the 1980's is a false one, since the reasons the free skate experts were not getting medals was their school figures, not their lack of jumps:

As to jumps in the 1980's, Midori Ito, Kristi Yamaguchi & Tonya Harding were often landing more content than Kostner does today, as well as Liz Manley. Ito had all her triples, landing her first 3A in 1988, Harding had all the triples less the axel, and Kristi was lacking the axel, and never could do a decent 3S.

Not to mention the 1987 World JR Champion, Cindy Bortz, whose jumps did not survive her transition to seniors.

Ito's 1988 LP at the Olympics is still one of the finest ladies' technical skates ever.

As to medallists in the early 1980's, Zayak landed more than 4 triple jumps, although she did not have the triple lutz or flip.
 

Skating-family

Spectator
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Amodio withdraw due an injury on his groin ... :s I heard US team is going back to USA for 2 weeks after CC 2012 and than coming back to Europe for worlds:)
 

Nadine

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
I'm sorry to hear that about Florent, because as I've always stated the very best competitions are when everybody skates their best and you win. Now with Florent's withdrawal that won't be possible. :(

Here's praying that Amodio's groin injury will be treated right away and monitored, as groin injuries are the worst, and oftentimes they come back (witness Elvis Stojko skating with a groin injury at the 2002 Olympics). :( He was never the same after he sustained his first one. Jmho.

Returning to the competition, I'm actually rooting for Samuel Contesti. :love:
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I'm rooting for Jorik Hendrickx of Belgium (5th in the SP). I just watched his SP-very nicely done. It's nice to see that men's skating in Belgium will still have a strong competitor after Kevin vdP retires!

He had the second highest TES behind Amodio :eek: and I thought he was a bit robbed in the PCS department.
 
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seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Oh Hendrix was one of my favs in Euros, I noticed him first time there in practices, I like his Lp most, and I think he will go further, he is very good!
Bad about Amodio's injury I hope it doesnt affect his Worlds performaces. And a thing Amodio doesnt lack is command and presence, he maybe needs better programs, especially the lp, but I wouldnt compare him with Oda.
I m happy for Joubert.
Contesti's sp is really not good, so I ll agree his pcs are a question. But he has a lot of personality in Lp. I dont know if he is a natural jumper or not, but does anyone else think his landings are clumpsy?
 
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