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Thread: International Challenge Cup - The Hague, Mar 8-11

  1. #181
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I believe you mean that Asada has a 3A<, which is not quite the same thing. Why does a skater need a big trick? I don't think any of the recent men's champions can be identified as having a single big trick. And really, the whole point of Yu-Na is that she was strong across the board; her skating wasn't about having a specific wow element.
    You must be kidding? You don't think the sudden surge in quads in the men's field isn't a "big trick"?

    Yet again: Kostner had a good 3F (including in combo) for years. She lost it, and her 3Lz, when she was injured and couldn't practice the jumps, and by her own admission has not gotten the 3Lz back consistently. Why is it worse to be missing a harder jump rather than an easier one? If Carolina should hang her head in shame, how about the ladies who can't do 3S or 3R? Are they the same as novice or intermediate or whatever lower level you want to use?

    Kostner has plenty of strengths: her jumps are with the proper technique, and she rotates them; she is fast and has great skating skills and steps (IIRC she was the first lady to get level 4), and she has pushed herself artistically with interesting music choices.
    Because the harder jump and combos make up for the missing "easier" one. You may not agree with that, but it's a common sentiment. Good speed, skating skills, and jump technique are not unique to Carolina. But I don't mean to say she has no strengths. Clearly she does. But why is it wrong for me to be disappointed by her jump content compared to recent world champs?

  2. #182
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    What was Ando's big trick last year-when she was missing a 3flip????? And how many of the girls everyone mentioned were really flutzing/had true lutzes.

    Don't get me wrong though I DO think having all the jumps should be rewarded more.
    There's a reason I didn't mention Ando. I was quite disappointed by her world title last year.

    It seems we're expressing very different sentiments here. I'm disappointed about Carolina's tech content--what's wrong with that? Sure skating is not all about jumps, but skaters ought to have some challenging elements in their programs. It's fine to omit weaknesses, but there should always be something else. What's that challenge in Carolina's program?

    I don't feel as bad now that it looks like she's going to have two 3Flips and continues to do the 2A+3T in her long program. She's at least challenging herself more later in this season. Mao and Yuna went for very challenging elements they didn't really need to win their world titles. To me, it seems Carolina was settling for the minimum content she needs to win the title this season.

    She's playing it very safe. That's smart, but disappointing to me.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    That wasn't how it was written - you mentioned Abbott and then you mentioned held up and didn't explain you were referring to the other 2...For the men, the only one who stood a realistic chance of beating Rippon was Miner, but he had too many mistakes at Nationals.Rippon wasn't great, but he skated better than the alternatives.

    As for Alissa,it's not like Zhang was THAT awesome (still slow and has skating issues) or that Zawadski was clean and Alissa was held up over a clean Agnes...
    Dornbush and Mahbanoozadeh had a realistic chance of beating Rippon too, and actually, if Josh Farris had skated like he did at JW at Nationals he probably would have come close. Yes, others made mistakes at nationals, but I take issue with the fact that in his FS which was considered a good performance for Adam, and got a huge score, he only managed to produce one clean 3a (and it wasn't a pretty one), he doubled the quad attempt, he's never landed or even rotated a quad in international competition before, and his first 3a was UR. At nationals, he gets PCS to make up for these things and keep him above the others, but internationally he won't, which is why Miner was able to medal at a GP and 4CC this season and Rippon wasn't. Do we really want to be sending a skater who can't be counted on to land a quad or more than one rotated/clean 3a in his FS to the World Championships? I mean I guess the mindset of the USFS was, does it really matter which skater out of this group of 5 we send to Worlds so they can place between 8th and 15th? No. But they should be looking towards the future, and Adam is older than most of the other guys in contention and I don't think he's ever going to be a strong jumper. Well, anyways, hope Ricky gets his mojo back for next season and Farris and Brown transition successfully to seniors and at least one of those three gets to go to Worlds next year.
    Last edited by silverlake22; 03-11-2012 at 02:32 AM.

  4. #184
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    There's a reason I didn't mention Ando. I was quite disappointed by her world title last year.

    It seems we're expressing very different sentiments here. I'm disappointed about Carolina's tech content--what's wrong with that? Sure skating is not all about jumps, but skaters ought to have some challenging elements in their programs. It's fine to omit weaknesses, but there should always be something else. What's that challenge in Carolina's program?

    I don't feel as bad now that it looks like she's going to have two 3Flips and continues to do the 2A+3T in her long program. She's at least challenging herself more later in this season. Mao and Yuna went for very challenging elements they didn't really need to win their world titles. To me, it seems Carolina was settling for the minimum content she needs to win the title this season.

    She's playing it very safe. That's smart, but disappointing to me.
    I kind of feel the need to defend Kostner a bit. Its not like for Kostner's whole career she went for easy layouts. There was a time when her jump layout was 3flip/3toe and double axel/3toe (like Kim till 2010) She had all the triples too back then with correct edges. She though has never been consistent with these jumps and spent a lot of years falling all over the place. She's also older and her body can only handle-so much. She's clearly adding more content-and I do think that's enough.

    It would be one thing if Kostner was younger-and not trying. (I kind of did feel Ando was walking towards that gold). But jumps have always been hard for Carolina.
    Last edited by bekalc; 03-11-2012 at 02:41 AM.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    Yuna and Mao had those, too. She's hardly on par with them, and not just on the medals count.
    This is what you think! In my opinion the carolina we've seen in these years is far superior than Mao and Yuna! And even though I like mao she may had the 3axel but now it's really incosistent...and add underrotated jumps and the no existing lutz she's not in a better condition than kostner! Still I hope she will come back strong at worlds!

  6. #186
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    You don't think the sudden surge in quads in the men's field isn't a "big trick"?
    How is it a big trick if so many people are doing it? At some point it stops being a trick and becomes part of the expected repertoire. I suppose you could say that Brandon Mroz has a big trick in the form of the 4Lz, not that it's helped him much.

    BTW, even if you want to count quads as a big trick - the three world champions who preceded Patrick Chan did not land a rotated quad at Worlds, and the reigning OGM certainly did not have a big trick in his winning performances. So what does that prove?

    Because the harder jump and combos make up for the missing "easier" one. You may not agree with that, but it's a common sentiment.
    It's a common sentiment that appeals to you. Another common sentiment is that good footwork and spins should make up for not having certain jumps, or that having correct technique is more important than doing all the jumps but flutzing or lipping - certainly we've seen these views expressed here more than once. I think it's better for a skater to do all the triples, as Kostner did for years before she was injured, but I don't think it's inherently better to leave out the 3R rather than the 3Lz.

    Let's use an example from the men's: Stephane Lambiel had a dodgy 3A, which is far more important than a 3Lz as the axel is a required jump in the SP. But he made up for it in other areas of his skating. That's how the system works: so long as you have enough strengths - and like it or not, Kostner does - you will be competitive even if you don't do everything. Unless there's someone who really can do everything well, which most skaters can't.

  7. #187
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    It doesn't matter what jumps Kostner does. The judges had already decided to give her the gold medal on a silver platter. Almost 71 in PCS!? 8.58 for TR??? Meh.

    Ladies Single is now as predictable as Ice Dance.
    Last edited by mikeko666; 03-11-2012 at 09:01 AM.

  8. #188
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    Before her injury Carolina had the same technical content as Yuna : 3Lz, 3F-3T, 2A-3T, solo 3F etc... And she was criticized for her sloppy execution,for the falls and for telegraphing the Lutz and Flip. Now by taking out the lutz and repeating the more easier triples, she has finally found a way to stay on her feet. As a result she could concentrate more on artistry and the quality of the executed jumps increased also tremendously. Based on that, should she really go for the same jump layout she had before 2010? Comparing the results of this season with the results she had before, she's on the right way. I prefer the Carolina who stays on her feet than the Carolina who falls 3 times in a program ( though more difficult jumps).

    And her opening Loop and Flip were first grade at this competition.

  9. #189
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    Videos - Ladies Free Skate (Updated)

    1. Carolina KOSTNER (ITA) (1st in FS) and 2nd Copy
    2. Valentina MARCHEI (ITA) (2nd in FS)
    3. Alissa CZISNY (USA) (5th in FS)
    4. Viktoria HELGESSON (SWE) (3rd in FS)
    5. Kerstin FRANK (AUT) (6th in FS)
    6. Lena MARROCCO (FRA) (7th in FS)
    11. Myriam LEUENBERGER (SUI) (15th in FS)
    13. Belinda SCHÖNBERGER (AUT) (11th in the FS)
    14. Anne Line GJERSEM (NOR) (14th in the FS)
    15. Henriikka HIETANIEMI (FIN) (13th in the FS)
    16. Manouk GIJSMAN (NED) (19th in FS)
    17. Isabel DRESCHER (GER) (16th in the FS)
    18. Jennifer URBAN (GER) (17th in the FS)
    19. Rosaliina KUPARINEN (FIN) (22nd in the FS)
    20. Ami PAREKH (IND) (18th in the FS)
    21. Eva LIM (NED) (24th in the FS)
    22. Dasa GRM (SLO)
    23. Sandy HOFFMANN (GER) (21st in the FS)
    24. Michelle COUWENBERG (NED) (23rd in the FS)

    Videos - Mens Free Skate (Updated)

    1. Brian JOUBERT (FRA) (1st in FS)
    2. Jeremy ABBOTT (USA) (2nd in FS)
    3. Samuel CONTESTI (ITA) (3rd in FS)
    4. Jorik HENDRICKX (BEL) (5th in FS)
    6. Ivan BARIEV (RUS) (6th in FS)

    Article on Carolina Kostner's win

    Article - The Examiner

    Article on Joubert's win
    Last edited by Mao88; 03-11-2012 at 11:47 PM.

  10. #190
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko666 View Post
    Ladies Single is now as predictable as Ice Dance.
    Is ice dance predictable? Who do you think will win worlds, the Grand Prix champions Davis and White or the Four Continents victors, Virtue and Moir. Who will get bronze, European champions Péchalat and Bourzat skating in their home country (yeah, probably ), the fast-rising Weaver and Poje, or last-years world bronze medalists Sibutani and Shibutani? Or do Bobrova and Soloviev have a chance to sneak in there?

    Now if you had said, "as predictable as men's...

  11. #191
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    So true!

    Now if he said as predictable as ice dance used to be...

  12. #192
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    Dance rocks! Thanks for the report, Treywn. My, my heart hurts for Alissa. Hope she can regroup - and I hope this strategy didn't take too much time in travel, comp, and now processing what happened. Jeremy has two great programs; I hope he can 'pull a nationals' and skate great on the world stage. These reports, though, make me even more nervous for worlds.

    I don't want to get in the Carolina tech fight; but I love her programs this year, and she is really lovely - for me - to watch when she skates like this (clean and confident). Can't wait to see her at worlds!

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Is ice dance predictable? Who do you think will win worlds, the Grand Prix champions Davis and White or the Four Continents victors, Virtue and Moir. Who will get bronze, European champions Péchalat and Bourzat skating in their home country (yeah, probably ), the fast-rising Weaver and Poje, or last-years world bronze medalists Sibutani and Shibutani? Or do Bobrova and Soloviev have a chance to sneak in there?

    Now if you had said, "as predictable as men's...
    Well said!

  14. #194
    Custom Title macy's Avatar
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    i don't want to get in the tech fight over carolina either, but i think i would have liked to see her fight through the falls and keep working on those jumps to get them consistent. i don't want to say she "gave up" on them, but it does seem she did take the easy way out. i don't know exactly when her injury was, i'm guessing 2-3 years ago, but if she's fully healed now then wouldn't any skater want to train the harder elements, even if they aren't the best at the present moment? use alissa as an example--she had tech issues up until she changed coaches. she could have just said screw it to the harder elements, but she didn't. or even caroline. meh...i don't know. just my opinion.

  15. #195
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    Thanks for the videos, I just watched Carolina & Alissa, and about 30 seconds of Valentina.

    a.) Carolina is a dream, so glad I finally got to see her skate live at 2010 Skate America, so lovely in person as well. What can I say she shined like a million stars above.

    b.) Alissa is so different now then she was in the past....calm, takes her time, holds every moment, exquisite to see.....but if she's injured and not able to give her best at Worlds, then she really should withdraw to give the next American in line the opportunity. Jmho. That said, can't wait to see her back in full competitive mode, complete with jumps, because when she's on she's easily right up there with the best in the world.

    c.) No disrespect to Valentina, but she's not my type of skater, therefore I only watched the first 30 seconds of her FS. However, from the protocols I can see she earned her silver medal, Congrats! (:^)


    Now I'd like to say that I'm suspicious as to why Jeremy & Alissa even competed here in the first place, and what I've come up with is that the USFSA knows that each is injured and wanted to give them an *unofficial* test skate before Worlds to see where they are at right now with their skating and respective injury(s). From there will come some tough decisions. Jmho.

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