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Thread: International Challenge Cup - The Hague, Mar 8-11

  1. #196
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    It's possible, but I've never heard of USFS strong-arming someone to withdraw from Worlds--of course, I'm not sure we would have heard, even if it had happened. Particularly not skaters that they clearly adore and want to do well, like Alissa & Jeremy.

    It's possible that Alissa & Jeremy are here to get Senior B international points, more than anything else. If so, even with crappy skates, mission accomplished.

  2. #197
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    My guess was USFS sent Zhang to 4 CC instead of Alissa made their coaches upset. They demanded for a "compensation", a European vacation trip Then Kamar did the just.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko666 View Post
    It doesn't matter what jumps Kostner does. The judges had already decided to give her the gold medal on a silver platter. Almost 71 in PCS!? 8.58 for TR??? Meh.

    Ladies Single is now as predictable as Ice Dance.
    Why? If yuna or mao deseves 70 points also carolina does with the program she skated yesterday!

    However also valentina's components were really high..to much IMO! 62 when she usually gets 55... it's a B competition not an official one...she won't get those components at worlds don't worry...

  4. #199
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanja90 View Post
    This is what you think! In my opinion the carolina we've seen in these years is far superior than Mao and Yuna! And even though I like mao she may had the 3axel but now it's really incosistent...and add underrotated jumps and the no existing lutz she's not in a better condition than kostner! Still I hope she will come back strong at worlds!
    You are certainly entitled to that opinion. But the reality of competition and the results speak for themselves.

    I'm bowing out of this argument--I certainly didn't mean to attack Carolina. I'm merely expressing my disappointment that she has watered down her content. However, Carolina is performing much better this year, and has managed to stay on her feet for several competitions in a row. Her programs are lovely and she has good speed, skating skills and artistry. If she can pull off what she did in this competition at Nice she will clearly deserve the world title.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    It's possible that Alissa & Jeremy are here to get Senior B international points, more than anything else. If so, even with crappy skates, mission accomplished.
    This seems plausible, but I'm a little confused as to why they would need it - did the 'lack' of 4CC points hurt them that much relative to others? (i'm sorry to keep asking questions about this competition - it's just that frankly, I never heard of it - i guess it was totally off my radar and i'm trying to understand why top tier skaters attended so close to worlds. Somehow, Caro made a 'little' more sense due to the relative proximity for her...but even that surprised me).

  6. #201
    skating philosopher
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    Here's my two cents on Carolina:

    1.) I was definitely irritated last season that Carolina seem to get magic points for watered down content last season.
    2.) That totally changed for me this season and namely because of two very fantastic, well-choreographed programs this season. Both programs really highlight exactly why Carolina is a factored despite the lack of a lutz — the skating skills, ice coverage, speed, etc.
    3.) I'd rather have Carolina's FS here or even from GPF than a very badly-choreographed 7-triple program from Alena Leonova, who basically does three flips.
    4.) I've been talking alot about strategy and management lately, especially in defending Jason Brown, another skater who is very good but is criticized for his current lack of a 3A. Many people see Carolina's team strategy as "giving up" or "playing it safe." In contrast, I see it as more a rebuilding or a redevelopment of confidence, especially since she had an injury. Even when she was being a train wreak in 2010, you can tell that judges still acknowledged her skating skills/artistry. I think her team realized that she need to rebuild her jump arsenal, but as long as they had programs that highlighted her strengths, that she would still do really well. I think the strategy has worked. It is not her fault that her competitors could not rise to the challenge (or they weren't there do so). I think she will get the Lutz back. We're already seeing a second flip and she has been able to skate relatively clean programs; so I'm hoping that the Lutz is next.
    5.) I get that for some of you it's much more fun to see 7-triple programs with 3-3. But for me, I'd like to see a well-executed 7-triple program with 3-3. I'd say Elizaveta T. has been the closest to that goal, but even then there are weaknesses — she still doesn't have great ice coverage and her choreography is not as
    developed. I'm a big fan of Gracie Gold as well, but she is also still weak on the PCS side (namely choreography/interpretation; she has decent skating skills). Adelina and Julia are close to the whole package also. If all those girls develop more on the PCS AND maintain that tech content, Carolina will not be able to win with her current technical content.

  7. #202
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Here's the ISU world standing list:

    http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsmen.htm

    Jeremy Abbott just earned 225 points for his efforts at Challenge, giving him a total of 3149 points, and 6th place overall.

    Without those 225, he would have 2924 points, and would be in 7th place. Positions in the SP may still be set by world rankings, in which case, he has located himself in the last group of 6.

    Furthermore, points go back 3 years, so these points will count towards his ranking when we get to the Olympics.
    In fact, he should do a 2nd Senior B this year, for the points he would get there, and for the next 2 seasons.

    http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsladies.htm

    Alissa likewise is in 6th place, but her score did not affect her placing. It did, however, earn her 203 points on her world standings total.

    On the season's list, it made a big change in her placing.
    http://www.isuresults.com/ws/wr/wrladies.htm

    She is currently in 11th place with 1128 points. Without those 203 points, she would have 925 points, which would put her in 18th place.

    Abbott is also in 11th place this season with 1150 points. Without the 225 points, he would have 925 points, and would be in 19th place.
    http://www.isuresults.com/ws/wr/wrmen.htm

    Now if Abbott had placed 3rd at 4CC's, behind Patrick & Daisuke, like Ross Miner, he would have netted 680 points for that, so a Senior B for 4CC's is not a good swap, but it is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 03-11-2012 at 01:23 PM.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadine View Post
    Thanks for the videos, I just watched Carolina & Alissa, and about 30 seconds of Valentina.

    a.) Carolina is a dream, so glad I finally got to see her skate live at 2010 Skate America, so lovely in person as well. What can I say she shined like a million stars above.

    b.) Alissa is so different now then she was in the past....calm, takes her time, holds every moment, exquisite to see.....but if she's injured and not able to give her best at Worlds, then she really should withdraw to give the next American in line the opportunity. Jmho. That said, can't wait to see her back in full competitive mode, complete with jumps, because when she's on she's easily right up there with the best in the world.

    c.) No disrespect to Valentina, but she's not my type of skater, therefore I only watched the first 30 seconds of her FS. However, from the protocols I can see she earned her silver medal, Congrats! (:^)


    Now I'd like to say that I'm suspicious as to why Jeremy & Alissa even competed here in the first place, and what I've come up with is that the USFSA knows that each is injured and wanted to give them an *unofficial* test skate before Worlds to see where they are at right now with their skating and respective injury(s). From there will come some tough decisions. Jmho.
    I agree with your comments! I also really discovered Carolina when I saw her live at 2009 TEB; there's just something really graceful about her on the ice.

    It was the first time I saw Alissa live. Despite the fact that her skate was a disaster (it also makes me feel really bad when skaters fall and don't get up instantly), there's definitely something about her calmness. Maybe it helped not being able to see her scared facial expressions. She really has the most beautiful smile. I really, really hope she can pull it together at Worlds or at least do enough.

    Valentina is not my type of skater either, I wasn't hooked by her performance. But she's definitely earned it! She was on!

    From interviews it seemed like coming to Challenge Cup was Jeremy's and Alissa's own decision, they wanted another competition before Worlds and it didn't sound like the USFSA pushed for it. It's way too late to get Czisny off the Worlds Team unless she withdraws. But honestly... she's probably still the best bet for the US. Though I agree that things aren't looking good :s Maybe now that everyone is expecting her to bomb, she'll surprise us all and have the skate of a lifetime.

  9. #204
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    I am pretty sure the Hague competition was not pushed by USFS. These elite level skaters do not need world rank to compete. They did two GP's, they did GPF, they got more than enough points for whatever. I think their coaches requested that they go to Hague (for whatever reason,maybe just for a small vacation before Worlds) as a compensation that USFS skipped Alissa for Zhang at 4CC. It turned out to be a bad idea and disaster for both Jeremy and Alissa. They should have stayed home and concentrate for Worlds since both of them were obviously "not ready".

  10. #205
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    Mrs. P - great post, I particularly appreciate your reasoning with point #4. Doris - thanks! This makes so much more sense to me now, really appreciated!

  11. #206
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    In hind sight, competing in this event, whose ever idea it was, didn't work out well for Alissa and Jeremy. Though it might have helped their ISU points, it couldn't have helped their confidence, momentum, or physical conditions for Worlds, nor the comfort level of their fans and USFSA. They would have many excuses for poor performances at the 4CC - fatigue, high altitude, and high level competition, none of which is applicable at The Hague. In a way, the dismal performances are puzzling as they were way under what could be reasonably expected of each and out of the realm of their abilities.

    Let's hope whatever caused the disastrous under-performances will be ironed out and they regroup well enough for Worlds.

  12. #207
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    It is probably too soon to say if it was a mistake to send Alissa and Jeremy. Let's see how Worlds goes for them. Both are coming back from injury-Jeremy has only been back on the ice since 4CC, and practicing there (he was there as his coaches were there), he wasn't doing the harder jumps. So who knows how long he's been back doing the 3A and the 4T. The two weeks should help him. Not so sure about Alissa. Still, this should give them both plenty of motivation to train hard.

    Also, the Jr Lady blogging for IceNetwork, mentioned they were skating without the usual warm up-which hindered her (she did win though). Maybe that also negatively impacted Jeremy and Alissa.

  13. #208
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by centerpt1 View Post
    It is probably too soon to say if it was a mistake to send Alissa and Jeremy. Let's see how Worlds goes for them. Both are coming back from injury-Jeremy has only been back on the ice since 4CC, and practicing there (he was there as his coaches were there), he wasn't doing the harder jumps. So who knows how long he's been back doing the 3A and the 4T. The two weeks should help him. Not so sure about Alissa. Still, this should give them both plenty of motivation to train hard.
    I absolutely second that. They just put themselves out there for a competition that doesn't matter that much. Sometimes you need to get it out of your system, it doesn't mean that everything is lost or that Czisny is back to where she was before the big comeback with the GPF-title. And if falling all over the place at a Senior-B means that you are done - well, then most skaters would have had to stop skating a long time ago.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    I absolutely second that. They just put themselves out there for a competition that doesn't matter that much. Sometimes you need to get it out of your system, it doesn't mean that everything is lost or that Czisny is back to where she was before the big comeback with the GPF-title. And if falling all over the place at a Senior-B means that you are done - well, then most skaters would have had to stop skating a long time ago.
    Just curious to know, who have fallen all over the place at a Senior B, especially any non European, and gone on to win Worlds or other major medals? Except maybe when they are early in their competitive careers.

  15. #210
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    ^ What does European or non European have to do with meltdowns before Worlds?
    Trewyn thanks for reports, I bet it was a great warm up for you before Worlds!
    I m so glad Carolina has skated in so many competitions this season with her best ever programs, I cant have enough of her sp.

    OT, but I m reading the last ten pages, what was the jump layout of the 80s that people compare to Carolina's? I dont know the ladies jump evolution at all from 80s till late 90s, didnt they do triples, or they didnt do combos with triples?

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