International Challenge Cup - The Hague, Mar 8-11

[Medusa]

Just curious to know, who have fallen all over the place at a Senior B, especially any non European, and gone on to win Worlds or other major medals? Except maybe when they are early in their competitive careers.

I didn't mean only Senior Bs. Just smaller competitions in general, be it a Senior B, Nationals, Japan Open, WTT... Anyone remember Yagudin at the Goodwill Games in 2001? And Chan had quite a few awful outings at summer competitions (basically senior Bs without the official stamp on them), also at GPs. Lambiel had some less than stellar performances at nationals, GPs and also once at Finlandia in 2002 - 11th - in the same season he came in 4th at Europeans. Kostner at Finlandia trophy is also an example, came in 3rd, but it was still pretty bad. Kozuka - reigning World Silver medalist - is also good at having a really bad outing from time to time, like scoring less than 200 points at the WTT in 2009. Asada at the Japan Open - another interesting story, if I were her I would stop doing that competition - in 2009 she scored barely above 90 in the freeskate and went on to become the Olympic Silver Medalist and World Champion that season.

I just think that it is really premature to draw big conclusions from one tiny competition. Neither is Joubert back just because he didn't fall all over the place, nor are Jeremy or Alissa out of the game just because they had some problems. Jeremy's SP score is still criminal though, as is Kostner's to a lesser amount. Which is my conclusion - stupid judging system! I am all about the artistic side of skating - but falls are falls and a Triple-Toe - Double-Toe stays the simplest combo in the elite skater's arsenal (provided there were no accidental singles), no matter how elaborate everything around it.

[SkateFiguring]

Thanks for clarifying. So you mean lesser competitions in general. I'm not writing Jeremy or Alissa off from the Hague. Whatever the speculations for up coming Worlds, it will he what each skater will bring on the ice on the days of the competitions that will count.

However, I beg to differentiate between this event and most of those you listed, mainly on the timing. Japan Open and summer events are pre-season and tryouts for new programs. The top skaters entered them do not even care about the placements but to get a general idea of judges' reception of their programs. E.g. this past summer Chan "competed" in a club event without even bothering to do his big jumps, even if some were happy that Mroz "beat" him. And of course even good skaters can have off days or meltdowns for various reasons. The event under discussion, however, is less than 3 weeks before Worlds, when programs are well seasoned and skaters are supposed to be be well prepared to peak, having proven themselves to qualify as entries, especially medalists from a strong skating federation like the US. They may not be conclusive, but the poor results from this competition are causes for much more concern than any pre or early season event.

[Mathman]

I just think that it is really premature to draw big conclusions from one tiny competition. Neither is Joubert back just because he didn't fall all over the place, nor are Jeremy or Alissa out of the game just because they had some problems.

Hope springs eternal.

But I feel so awful for Alissa even so. (Not so much for Jeremy -- all he has to do is leave out the quad, concentrate on his triple Axels, and he'll be fine.) Alissa is so nice and she tries so earnestly to do her best. If there is a heaven, the (skate) gods will smile upon her in France.

[mskater93]

Dornbush and Mahbanoozadeh had a realistic chance of beating Rippon too, and actually, if Josh Farris had skated like he did at JW at Nationals he probably would have come close. Yes, others made mistakes at nationals, but I take issue with the fact that in his FS which was considered a good performance for Adam, and got a huge score, he only managed to produce one clean 3a (and it wasn't a pretty one), he doubled the quad attempt, he's never landed or even rotated a quad in international competition before, and his first 3a was UR.

I meant after the SP - the only one with a realistic chance of beating Rippon was Miner. Dornbush was a mess in his SP. Mahbenoozadeh doesn't have the international rep and his long was full of mistakes that made it only Miner that had a shot.

[fscric]

... Not so much for Jeremy -- all he has to do is leave out the quad, concentrate on his triple Axels, and he'll be fine.

I definitely agree with you, it's obvious to me that in his recent attempts in doing the quad, he has been very tentative entering the jump and it affected the fluidity of his programme.

[SkateFiguring]

But without the quad, Jeremy's chances of medaling at Worlds are not good. He has to decide between playing it safe and go big or go home. It paid Kozuka well to land his best quad at Worlds last year even with a season of inconsistencies. Will Jeremy have the technical skills and confidence to go for it and, whatever the outcome of the quad, to still do his best for the rest of the program? That is the most important issue for Jeremy and it's a mental one. He has to keep his program no matter how he does his quad. Like Patrick.

[Mathman]

^ I don't agree at all. Patrick can do a quad. Jeremy? Not so's you notice.

It is no disgrace to go with what you got. There are many ways to score points in the CoP besides the tried and true method of falling on quads. (Ask Lysacek.) Bring what you've got and make the other guy step up and beat you if he can. And anyway, you might get silver.

[silverlake22]

Jeremy's chances of medaling aren't good without a quad, but if he skates well and leaves out the quad I could see him finishing between like 4th-6th, which would still be good and would give us a chance at getting 3 spots back without putting unrealistic expectations on Rippon, who probably can't make top 5 even if he's perfect. The quad is a gamble, but with Jeremy's PCS, he doesn't need it to do well. The way I see it, he can leave out the quad and likely finish 4th-6th, or he can go for the quad, if he lands it, then yeah he might win silver or bronze, but if he doesn't and it affects the rest of his program, he could finish down around 8th-10th or maybe even lower. That's my outlook at least. Even with the quad it will be tough for him to make the podium just with the crazy deep field this year.

[Buttercup]

Just curious to know, who have fallen all over the place at a Senior B, especially any non European, and gone on to win Worlds or other major medals? Except maybe when they are early in their competitive careers.

Daisuke Takahashi, who didn't do a great job at 2009 Finlandia (or 2009 NHK, for that matter) but went on to an Olympic medal and the World Championship. It's true that he was returning from injury. Javier Fernandez was not in great form at Nebelhorn this season, but he had a wonderful GP season, and I think a GPF medal counts as a major result for him, right? Tomas Verner medalled but did not skate well at Nebelhorn the year he won Euros.

No senior Bs, but neither Chan nor Buttle had a particularly inspired start to their seasons the year they won Worlds (yes, I know Chan did well results-wise; he wasn't skating well, though). On the ladies side, Mao Asada was not great on the GP circuit in 2009 but held it together at the big events.

Keep in mind that high profile skaters are less likely to do Senior Bs, and that there aren't many between Euros/4CCs and Worlds, so it's hard to find any parallels. I agree with Medusa that this event doesn't necessarily imply that Abbott/Czisny will skate poorly in Nice, though Czisny's record this season might be additional cause for concern.

[Trewyn]

Also, the Jr Lady blogging for IceNetwork, mentioned they were skating without the usual warm up-which hindered her (she did win though). Maybe that also negatively impacted Jeremy and Alissa.

Leah's blog was a fun read! I unfortunately didn't see her compete. But I can tell that the seniors all had a normal 6 minute warm-up. (I have some video footage that I can put on youtube if anyone's interested). No idea why the juniors didn't have a warm-up, probably because of the tight schedule. There was a practice rink in the building as well, so they got normal practice time as well.

Alissa and Jeremy both struggled in their respective warm-ups.

[Mao88]

Most of the rest of the videos from the senior ladies and mens competitions have been uploaded on the tournament organisers youtube account here. They have also started to upload the videos from the junior competitions as well.

[Itcaip]

It's not like Carolina is practicing only Salchows and Toeloops.

Even at last years practice for the Europeans (just a short time after the injury) she was doing triple lutzes in practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjhJcgNCyG0 ( at 5:50 she does a beautiful one).

But this is the jump that often lead her down. So why take the risk?

[shine]

Just would like to say that IMO all of Carolina's PCS are deserved for what she did at this competition. Her FS is a dream. And I have never seen another woman who can skate with the combination of power, elegance, freedom, and musicality as she does. She's truly an artist at heart and skates with a vision. I wasn't the biggest Kostner fan when she first came on the scene, but she really won me over through the years. As someone who loves Mozart to pieces, I think he would've been so pleased!

[Itcaip]

Just would like to say that IMO all of Carolina's PCS are deserved for what she did at this competition. Her FS is a dream. And I have never seen another woman who can skate with the combination of power, elegance, freedom, and musicality as she does. She's truly an artist at heart and skates with a vision. I wasn't the biggest Kostner fan when she first came on the scene, but she really won me over through the years. As someone who loves Mozart to pieces, I think he would've been so pleased!

And look at the triples she lands.. they're just awww....

[sky_fly20]

Carolina when she is on always has huge and light jumps
she flies in the air when jumping