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Thread: International Challenge Cup - The Hague, Mar 8-11

  1. #61
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Sorry I missed this but Joubert did two quads in sP? I m partying

  2. #62
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    I just took a look at the ladies' protocols. I realize that Carolina has excellent spins and skating skills, but a 3t2t combo and 3lp befits a novice skater. The juniors are even required to do a lutz this year in the sp. I hope COP in the future will create a bigger differential between triple jumps. Furthermore, the senior LP should give a bonus to skaters who fully rotate all five triples.

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    Result of Ladies Short Program and Protocols

    1 Carolina KOSTNER ITA 64.89 (30.77 34.12 0.00)
    2 Alissa CZISNY USA 59.82 (29.06 31.76 1.00)
    3 Valentina MARCHEI ITA 57.55 (30.61 26.94 0.00)
    4 Myriam LEUENBERGER SUI 48.31 (27.03 21.28 0.00)
    5 Lena MARROCCO FRA 47.76 (26.74 21.02 0.00)
    6 Kerstin FRANK AUT 47.66 (28.20 19.46 0.00)
    7 Haruna SUZUKI JPN 46.44 (23.04 23.40 0.00)
    8 Viktoria HELGESSON SWE 45.63 (20.03 26.60 1.00)
    9 Manouk GIJSMAN NED 45.31 (25.53 19.78 0.00)
    10 Fleur MAXWELL LUX 45.14 (24.80 21.34 1.00)
    11 Romy BÜHLER SUI 43.84 (24.56 19.28 0.00)
    12 Cecillia TÖRN FIN 42.92 (22.44 20.48 0.00)
    13 Anne Line GJERSEM NOR 42.06 (22.40 19.66 0.00)
    14 Henriikka HIETANIEMI FIN 40.07 (22.07 18.00 0.00)
    15 Rosaliina KUPARINEN FIN 38.90 (21.10 19.80 2.00)
    16 Belinda SCHÖNBERGER AUT 37.72 (21.60 16.12 0.00)
    17 Kana MURAMOTO JPN 37.16 (17.82 20.34 1.00)
    18 Isabel DRESCHER GER 36.98 (20.34 16.64 0.00)
    19 Eva LIM NED 35.29 (17.57 17.72 0.00)
    20 Jennifer URBAN GER 33.64 (17.50 17.14 1.00)
    21 Sandy HOFFMANN GER 32.47 (16.53 16.94 1.00)
    22 Michelle COUWENBERG NED 30.83 (14.77 17.06 1.00)
    23 Dasa GRM SLO 30.19 (14.87 16.32 1.00)
    24 Ami PAREKH IND 29.40 (16.40 16.00 3.00)
    Last edited by Mao88; 03-09-2012 at 07:56 PM.

  4. #64
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    I pray that the Juniors coming up next year will up the technical ante in Seniors because Carolina is doing 1980's jump content and is winning. Older skaters like Carolina and Alissa might be in a bit of trouble as the Juniors get more experience.

  5. #65
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Congratulations to Leah Keiser on her first place, it seems she had trouble on her flip toe combo, and her score is not as high as she can but I hope she has a great free skate, I like her skating alot!

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    Videos - Mens Short Program

    1. Florent AMODIO (FRA)
    2. Brian JOUBERT (FRA) and 2nd Copy)
    3. Jeremy ABBOTT (USA) and 2nd Copy
    4. Samuel CONTESTI (ITA)
    5. Jorik HENDRICKX (BEL)
    6. Ivan BARIEV (RUS) and 2nd Copy
    7. Peter LIEBERS (GER)
    8. Laurent ALVAREZ (SUI)
    10. Kim LUCINE (MON)
    12. Stéphane WALKER (SUI)
    13. Julian LAGUS (FIN)
    14. David RICHARDSON (GBR)
    15. Taras RAJEC (SVK)
    16. Viktor ZUBIK (FIN)

    Further videos being uploaded here and here.
    Last edited by Mao88; 03-10-2012 at 03:49 AM.

  7. #67
    Custom Title macy's Avatar
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    carolina gets a 64 with a 3T+2T and a 3L? i know she had high PCS but i feel the judges were quite generous in that aspect...

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    Quote Originally Posted by macy View Post
    carolina gets a 64 with a 3T+2T and a 3L? i know she had high PCS but i feel the judges were quite generous in that aspect...
    Pathetic! I can't stand Carolina for her being overscored repeatedly with a novice level jump layout. She has been quite 'consistent' and 'successful' for the past 2 years by massively scaling down the jump difficulty. It's beyond pathetic.

  9. #69
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjuarez View Post
    Congratulations to Leah Keiser on her first place, it seems she had trouble on her flip toe combo, and her score is not as high as she can but I hope she has a great free skate, I like her skating alot!
    Welcome to Golden Skate, cjuarez! We hope you post long and often.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    He gave a bad skate. The CoP says he gave a good skate.
    I suggest watching starting after the falls and telling me what's bad about that part of the performance.
    For comparison you might want to watch the other top guys starting with their third elements.

    We've already discussed elsewhere the decision by the ISU for quads and triple axels with falls still to earn several points of positive TES. If those positive points were fewer, then this performance would have fewer total points. Would something like 71 instead of 77 seem more appropriate? I think the negative GOEs are the place to penalize the failures more severely. But the guys who actually try these jumps and know how hard they are feel differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sjs5572 View Post
    I just took a look at the ladies' protocols. I realize that Carolina has excellent spins and skating skills, but a 3t2t combo and 3lp befits a novice skater. The juniors are even required to do a lutz this year in the sp.
    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    Pathetic! I can't stand Carolina for her being overscored repeatedly with a novice level jump layout.
    You do realize that novice skaters are allowed to do only double jumps and single axels in their short programs, and that juniors are allowed to do double-double combinations and double lutz out of steps.

    The stronger jumpers at those levels go for the triples, but it's not required. Seniors are required to do triples. Kostner met that requirement, with lesser difficulty than most successful seniors but better quality than many.

    Often the most talented jumpers get their triples by early teens and are including them at novice or junior level. Because of the way women mature physically, it's pretty normal for senior ladies to be doing the same jumps they were doing at lower levels, or less. To remain competitive, they need to compensate for any loss in jump content with improvements in other areas. Some succeed and sustain long careers; others fade away as new youngsters take a turn in the spotlight during a brief athletic peak. That's the story of women's skating 30-40 years, since triple jumps started playing a part.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    I pray that the Juniors coming up next year will up the technical ante in Seniors because Carolina is doing 1980's jump content and is winning.
    More hyperbole.

    No one was doing two triples in the short program in the 1980s because the rules only allowed one.
    In ladies' long programs, four different triples was extremely rare in the 1980s and until 1988 I think Liz Manley was the only medalist who accomplished that.

    Older skaters like Carolina and Alissa might be in a bit of trouble as the Juniors get more experience.
    That's always how it works, the younger generation overtakes the older. How quickly it happens depends partly on the specific skaters in each cohort, and how well the older ones hold onto their skills vs. how quickly the younger ones develop theirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by macy View Post
    carolina gets a 64 with a 3T+2T and a 3L? i know she had high PCS but i feel the judges were quite generous in that aspect...
    Yes, it does seem that the judges at this event were generous with the top PCS. Perhaps to reflect the difference in quality between the top world-medal-contender seniors competing at this event vs. a larger group of average or below-average seniors.

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    Does anyone else think that Alissa needs to ditch the 3 Loop, forget the 3Z/3T attempt in the short program, and put her 3 Flip back in?? I was glancing at the protocols and she gets negative GOE on the loop as well. I realize that sometimes she lips and gets an "e" call on the flip, but she'd have to garner more points for that than she would with the loop, right? Similarly, the 3Z/3T seems like it isn't going to happen this year, but she does a lovely 3Z/2T, usually with positive GOE. Altering her jumps doesn't seem worth it, especially because the only way anyone other than Kostner and Suzuki can beat her in the short is with a 3/3. I don't really see that happening for Leonova or Wagner either, so what's the point of Alissa changing her jump content?!?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    I pray that the Juniors coming up next year will up the technical ante in Seniors because Carolina is doing 1980's jump content and is winning. Older skaters like Carolina and Alissa might be in a bit of trouble as the Juniors get more experience.
    ikr, Carolina's set of jump arsenals are laughable.

  13. #73
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    Pathetic! I can't stand Carolina for her being overscored repeatedly with a novice level jump layout. She has been quite 'consistent' and 'successful' for the past 2 years by massively scaling down the jump difficulty. It's beyond pathetic.
    No, whining about it on a skating forum is pathetic. Kostner started 2010-11 injured and scaled down her jump content because she wasn't allowed to train 3F and 3Lz. She did eventually bring back the flip, but the lutz remains an issue. That's one jump. How many ladies are doing all the jumps and doing them right? How many ladies are as strong across the board as Carolina is? It used to be that people complained that Kostner was winning with messy skates. Now that she's winning with clean but simpler skates people are still complaining. Are the other ladies skating well enough that her results should be questioned? No, they aren't. Go read gkelly's post; that's a very good explanation of Kostner's scores.

    Let's see if the juniors so many seem excited about can have anywhere near the career Kostner has had.

    And I must say, the most mystifying scoring from yesterday is Contesti's PCS. He has a very limited range as a performer and nowhere near the skating skills Kostner does, yet he got the third highest men's PCS - higher than Joubert and almost as good as Amodio's! Where the judges even paying attention?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88 View Post
    Videos - Mens Short Program

    1. Florent AMODIO (FRA)
    2. Brian JOUBERT (FRA)
    3. Jeremy ABBOTT (USA) and 2nd Copy
    4. Samuel CONTESTI (ITA)
    5. Jorik HENDRICKX (BEL)
    6. Ivan BARIEV (RUS) and 2nd Copy
    7. Peter LIEBERS (GER)
    8. Laurent ALVAREZ (SUI)
    10. Kim LUCINE (MON)
    13. Julian LAGUS (FIN)
    14. David RICHARDSON (GBR)
    15. Taras RAJEC (SVK)
    16. Viktor ZUBIK (FIN)

    Further videos being uploaded here and here.


    Thanks for the videos, just watched the top 4.

    Aye yi yi *smacks self on forehead* This is in regards to Jeremy's falls. Rewarding falls is rewarding failure, and that's just what it was. All the smoke & mirrors of COP does not fool even the common layperson, a fall is a fall is a fall. Diving, gymnastics, ballet, et al don't reward falls. Falls is failure, plain & simple. Even for my favorite American man, Jeremy Abbott.

    The only routine I honestly enjoyed was Samuel Contesti of Italy. He's a natural jumper and his 3A was HUGE, but alas he came down on two feet, but made up for that with the beautiful 3Z/3T & 3F, and a nice program that got the crowding going a bit.

    Brian Joubert could do sooo soooo much better with a better routine because imho when he skates clean he should always defeat Amodio, whom reminds me of Nobunari Oda of Japan (no stretch, no line, no presence nor command of the ice), whereas Brian has all these things. What he lacked here was a good routine, as well as turnouts on both of his quads and the height on his 3A was not that great, just okay. Mediocre performance by him. I suggest skating clean first & foremost, like how Evan Lysacek did at the 2010 Olympics. A clean performance will win out over a more difficult one, so I say drop the quad, or at the very least drop at least one quad. Skate C-L-E-A-N (& bring back "Once Upon A Time in Mexico")!

    This is how I would have placed them:

    1.) Florent Amodio - 4S(turnuot), 3Z/3T(beautiful), 3A(turnout). 79 pts.
    2.) Brian Joubert - 4T/2T(turnout), 4S(turnout), 3A(okay, nothing special). 77 pts.
    3.) Samuel Contesti - 3Z/3T(beautiful), 3A(huge, but came down on 2ft.), 3F (nice & big). 76 pts.
    4.) Jeremy Abbott - 4T(UR & Fall), 3A(Fall), 3Z/3T (nice). Also he's an artist, but falls are falls are falls. 74 pts.

    Hmmm, having a hard time judging 2nd & 3rd (& even 1st) actually because I really did enjoy Samuel Contesti's routine, but the messy quads I suppose equal out Samuel's messy 3A. Oh well.

    Now just waiting to see Carolina's & Alissa's programs.

    All in all though I'm okay with the scores and the placements, being that this is just a low-ranked B competition, and therefore the scores are relative and reflect this. In fact they're lucky to have a few contenders for Worlds even show up, even though none of them are in top form. :( And I'm sure Alissa knows that this Worlds will be her best shot at a World Medal, Carolina not so much because Carolina does have 3/3 combos. in her arsenal and she already has two World Medals, but even Carolina must know that this is her best shot at finally winning Worlds! No Miki Ando with her consistent huge 3/3 combos., nor Yuna Kim whom is in a class all her own (simply the best), and alas a Mao Asada that is nowhere near her 2010 Olympic form. So that leaves the field literally WIDE OPEN. The only question is whom will step up to the plate and hit a home run.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by enlight78 View Post
    I have to disagree. He would have needed to score 90 + for cop to say he gave a good skate., 70 + are now just ok skates
    That used to be the case when there were 2 step sequences in the men's SP, but now, 90+ is very rare. I'd say: 80+ is great, 75-80 is quite good, 70-75 is solid. A score of 77 likely wouldn't be down as low as 15th for the SP at Worlds, more like top 5-10. With the changes to the programs, 85 is the new 90 for men and 65 is the new 70 for women, I'd say.

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