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Thread: Who did what first?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think it was 3S+3T+3T. Here is 2003 Worlds.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rosTPrSqjwY
    There it's 3S+3T+3Lo

    Van der Perren and Plushenko are the only two skaters who have done 4T+3T+3T. Here is Kevin at 2010 Worlds.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flWhZrA7NJM
    Has Plushenko ever done 4T+3T+3T? I thought he did 4T+3T+3Lo (which is harder)

  2. #32
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Van der Perren and Plushenko are the only two skaters who have done 4T+3T+3T.
    I'm pretty sure Plushenko did 4T-3T-3R, as did Kevin Reynolds at 2008 Canadian Nats.

  3. #33
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Mathman you didnt do the homework?
    Plushy has done 4T+3T+3Lo in COR 2002 (first attempt with step out was at Olys 2002), I dont remember 4T+3T+3T from him. The next one was Reynolds as Buttercup said. He did a 4T-3Lo at warm up of of Euros 2006 (I remember cause eurosport guys were gushing ab it) which I found it veeery cool, has any skater done it in competition?

    Kevin landed the 4-3-3 at worlds in front of me

  4. #34
    Custom Title Slowdive's Avatar
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    So the Axel was the first jump?
    When was the Flip introduced?

  5. #35
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I imagine the waltz jump was the first jump?

  6. #36
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    Regarding the basic jumps, my knowledge about the invention of them is this:

    Axel: 1882 (Axel Paulsen)

    Salchow: 1909 (Ulrich Salchow)

    Rittberger (Loop): 1910 (Werner Rittberger)

    Flip: around 1910 (maybe by Mapes)

    Lutz: 1913 (Alois Lutz)

    Toeloop: 1920’s (Bruce Mapes)

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think it was 3S+3T+3T. Here is 2003 Worlds.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rosTPrSqjwY

    Wikipedia says that he did this for the first time at 2002 World Juniors, but I think that's wrong. His 2002 World Juniors LP is on YouTube and he attempts 3Lz+3T+3T, but cannot get the third jump off. (He won the LP anyway and finished second over all -- to Daisuka Takahashi. )

    Van der Perren and Plushenko are the only two skaters who have done 4T+3T+3T. Here is Kevin at 2010 Worlds.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flWhZrA7NJM
    It was a 3s-3t-3t. I was there and it was amazing. Arakawa was also trying 3-3-3's (3z-3t-3lp) in the warmup at that event.

  8. #38
    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I think a 4T+4T is more likely.
    Would such an "exhausting" move be worth it? It might be best to keep the 4T/3T, then a solo 4T.

    Since we're counting practice attempts, would we credit Tonia Kwiatkowski for landing the 4R in a Texaco commercial?

  9. #39
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue dog View Post
    Would such an "exhausting" move be worth it? It might be best to keep the 4T/3T, then a solo 4T.
    That's an interesting point. Gone are the days when a skater could do spectacular leaps just to show off. Now you have to calculate the points.

    4T+4T
    3A
    3A+3T
    3Lz
    3F
    2S
    2A+2Lo+2Lo
    ? 2A ?

    Total base points 67.4

    4T+3T
    4T
    3A+2T
    3A
    3Lz
    3F
    3S
    2A+2Lo+2Lo

    Total base points 65.6.

    So...yes, do the 4T+4T. It will net you 1.8 points.

  10. #40
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    Mathman, did you intend for the 4T+4T skater to double his salchow and for neither of them to attempt a triple loop?


    Although it's legal to attempt a quad-quad combination in a free program, the state of the art as of 2012 is such that even if a great jumper could pull off that combination successfully it's unlikely that he'd also be able to land 7 good triples and also get high marks for all components and non-jump elements, so it wouldn't necessarily guarantee a win. The same skater with the same skills could probably skate a better program by distributing his jumps differently.

    I'd like to see a jumps-only competition (or phase of competition) formatted in such a way that it would be worthwhile for the best jumpers to try jumps and jump combinations at the very edge of what's possible, without either success or failure having a negative effect on the other 4 minutes of the program. In the jump event, athletic pyrotechnics would be the appeal for audiences.

    In the free program, on the other hand, coherent, "well-balanced" combination of all different types of skills would still take precedence.

    If they were separate parts of the same competition, a skater who successfully lands a good 4-4 combination might build up a good lead, which he could then sustain in the free program by including jumps and other skills at the top of but not pushing outside of his comfort level.
    Last edited by gkelly; 02-22-2012 at 03:33 PM.

  11. #41
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Mathman, did you intend for the 4T+4T skater to double his salchow and for neither of them to attempt a triple loop?
    Oops.

    What, you expect these guys to do a triple loop after all that?

    So, by doubling the Salchow the first skater lost despite his spectacular opening combo. But at least he made the record book by being the first to do a quad/quad!

  12. #42
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    You guys are also forgetting that a 4t has a higher scale of values in GOE than a 3t. Thus, it's more advantageous to spread it out.

    Of course, in practice, doing a 4t/4t would almost certainly increase a skater's PCS. And even a slightly shoddy 4t/4t is likely to get the full +GOE (for the first few times anyway).

  13. #43
    Custom Title IDLERACER's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, THIS was the first time I remember ever seeing a backflip in competition, (back in the days when it was still legal to do one).

  14. #44
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Yes, Terry Kubicka is the first and only guy to do a backflip in compettion.

    I always felt that there was no reason that Surya's landing on one foot backflip shouldn't have been legal.

    Especially since no one complained about Bobrin's signature sideways flip, done here at the end of his program.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X94k7jshVKs#t=5m5s

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Yes, Terry Kubicka is the first and only guy to do a backflip in compettion.
    Legally. Maybe internationally.

    Offhand, I believe both Doug Mattis and Dan Hollander did it in their long programs at their final US Nationals appearances, probably for about the same reasons Bonaly did it in Nagano -- as a celebration of the end of the competitive, following-rules part of their skating career

    I always felt that there was no reason that Surya's landing on one foot backflip shouldn't have been legal.

    Especially since no one complained about Bobrin's signature sideways flip, done here at the end of his program.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X94k7jshVKs#t=5m5s
    Here's Robert Wagenhoffer doing a backflip and a "Wagenhoffer cartwheel" or "Wagenhoffer flip" one after the other -- this is from a pro competition many years later, but he was also doing the latter move in the early 80s, about the same time as Bobrin, but here from a flip takeoff as opposed to Bobrin's inside axel takeoff.

    I think the difference is that 1) the cartwheel move doesn't go completely upside down, so a failure is less likely to result in severe head and neck trauma, and 2) the cartwheel move makes more use of skating edges curving on the entry to generate the aerial portion rather than purely acrobatic skill

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