Ways to watch a program

LeReveur · Feb 21, 2012

Though I'm not a skater nor a coach, I do watch lots of skating. I'd assume it's because I love sports, dance, and music, so it's a combination of the three that I happen to enjoy. I suppose I've usually watched programs with ignorant eyes. I know which jumps are which, I've had knowledge of all (6.0) or most (COP) of the rules, and it's not too hard to see things like if spins are fast/centered or not, but I don't think I catch a lot of the things that you posters do. I don't really notice if someone has deep edges, I wouldn't be able to define "basic skating skills", and there are probably many other things I don't pick up on.

I'm asking for input on how one can watch programs. Do some of you focus mostly on the feet? Do you pick up right away on if someone has better line than last season or do you notice after watching a program a few times?

I tend to have my favorites and watch programs hoping they'll do well and watch the rest being critical of their performance, but I have also taken comments from this website to watch old programs (or some for the first time) in order to pay attention to specific aspects.

How can a viewer become more educated and watch a program in a more meaningful way?

*side note: I love the knowledge I've picked up here, including musical suggestions. Where should I start a thread about dance in general (I am sure many of you like it)? I'd love for there to be a thread about favorite YouTube clips, movies about dance, etc.

Many thanks in advance.

dorispulaski · Feb 21, 2012

LeReveur, All of the threads you have suggested would be much welcomed in The Edge folder!

In general, I watch the feet most-most graded elements start there.

When a skater has deep edges, what you will notice is deep, big lobes in their turns. Edges should be quiet-the skaters should not sound like they are dragging a bag of cutlery behind them. You should see little or no snow coming up from the blades, and the skaters should not be on the toe or heel of the skate, unless they are doing some kind of purposeful toe or heel step. You should not see the skater pushing with his toe pick to gather speed. Having deep knee bend is desirable. You want to see flow in and out of elements, without irksome stopping.

If you watch on your computer, a set of top notch headphones is a good investment, or plug your audio jack into some other piece of equipment that has really good speakers. Good sound reproduction improves the whole experience.

spikydurian · Feb 24, 2012

Hi LeReveur, I am in the same boat as yourself.

A non-skater who is drawn to figure skating. Thanks for starting this thread as I will be looking out for tips too. Some of the posters here are very knowledgeable on the technical side of fs. You learn when you read their posts. I also like to watch with comments because I can learn from the commentators. The good commentators can see what we can't and they can explain why someone fall or why that particular element is regarded as brilliant.
Thanks Doris for starting off with explanation of good edges. Maybe some you-tubes link or examples of great edges will help us to understand more? Hope I am not asking too much. :biggrin:

gkelly · Feb 24, 2012

Where are you located? If there's any possibility of getting to a rink and watching skating live and up close, I think that would be a good way to learn to see some basics about skating that are hard to explain in words or to see on video without having had the live experience first.

It doesn't even have to be elite skating. One of the most illuminating experiences for me was going to a local club competition and watching all the different levels. From prejuvenile through senior, most of the jumps being attempted were doubles. So I quickly saw that which jumps were being performed -- or even, to some extent, how many were successful -- didn't make nearly as much difference as how they were being performed in terms of size and speed and body control. Not to mention the quality of the skating in between (speed, security, depth of edge, etc.).

In some groups there was one kid who, as soon as she got on the ice and before she did any jumps, I knew was going to win because the way she moved across the ice was in a whole different league from the rest of that group.

Some elite skaters especially known for the quality of their edges and basic skating:

Hamill
Gordeeva/Grinkov
Sato
Eldredge
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze
Chan

Really almost any world medalist ice dancers (with a few exceptions) are going to be better than almost any freestyle skaters. Here's one of my favorites:
Klimova/Ponomarenko

dorispulaski · Feb 24, 2012

Another good thing to do to see edges is to watch old tapes of compulsory dances. Because the teams are doing exactly the same steps, you can see what's good, and what's not so good.

Some of the best compulsories ever were done by Usova & Zhulin!

Usova & Zhulin Waltz 1991 (best)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8MfEHAI54M

McDonald & Smith Waltz 1991 (a very new Canadian team at the time-not as good)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE7TP9SKlus

Usova & Zhulin Rhumba 1991 (this year's pattern dance inside the Short Dance)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0buSt4byhNQ

Duchesnay & Duchesnay 1991 Rhumba (3rd place)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SUEe_z4nF8

McDonald & Smith Rhumba 1991 (a very new Canadian team at the time-not as good)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng4GaZTsCOw&feature=related

gkelly · Feb 24, 2012

Good examples, dorispulaski.

There are lots of waltz compulsory dances, BTW. The one used in 1991 is the Ravensburger Waltz.

Olympia · Feb 24, 2012

I can't wait to view these videos! Thanks as always for the education, you guys.

dorispulaski · Feb 24, 2012

gkelly, I was just too lazy to look it up.

For the record, for those who need to know these things:

All the compulsory dances & original, OSP, and short dance themes by year are in the reference second of ice-dance.com:

http://www.ice-dance.com/reference

Going off topic,

Personally, I think U&Z were totally :wuzrobbed: at 1991 Worlds. While I love the Duchesnay's FD (even if it was the second time around for it), they could have been even lower in the CD's & U&Z should have won the OSP hands down.

Dragonlady · Feb 24, 2012

Count me as another one who watches the feet first. If the feet aren't good, I'm not ever going to like that skater. I can forgive/live with bad posture and weak positions, but not bad feet.

gkelly · Feb 24, 2012

Depends whether I'm watching to analyze the results or to enjoy a performance.

If it's during competition, usually the former. If I'm rewatching after the fact, it might be just to sit back and enjoy.

dorispulaski · Feb 24, 2012

If I'm serious about analyzing it, I watch it once for the feet for the tech score, and once looking at the whole impression for the Pcs.

spikydurian · Feb 25, 2012

gkelly said:
Where are you located? If there's any possibility of getting to a rink and watching skating live and up close, I think that would be a good way to learn to see some basics about skating that are hard to explain in words or to see on video without having had the live experience first.

It doesn't even have to be elite skating. One of the most illuminating experiences for me was going to a local club competition and watching all the different levels. From prejuvenile through senior, most of the jumps being attempted were doubles. So I quickly saw that which jumps were being performed -- or even, to some extent, how many were successful -- didn't make nearly as much difference as how they were being performed in terms of size and speed and body control. Not to mention the quality of the skating in between (speed, security, depth of edge, etc.).

In some groups there was one kid who, as soon as she got on the ice and before she did any jumps, I knew was going to win because the way she moved across the ice was in a whole different league from the rest of that group.

Some elite skaters especially known for the quality of their edges and basic skating:

Hamill
Gordeeva/Grinkov
Sato
Eldredge
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze
Chan

Really almost any world medalist ice dancers (with a few exceptions) are going to be better than almost any freestyle skaters. Here's one of my favorites:
Klimova/Ponomarenko

Thank you everyone. Much appreciated. I am going to take my time to watch these videos and shoot off queries if I don't understand anything. Unfortunately, no, gskelly. Figure skating is not a well-known sport in the 'land of kangaroos and koalas'. We are very good at water and ball sports not ice sports. There isn't one ice skating rink where I live! :=( So I will have to contend with watching on t.v. and you tubes (thank god for the internet.... the plus side of being having to watch something you like even though it is not broadcasted over t..v.).

Perhaps some day I may fly all the way to North America to watch the Worlds FS? They do have occasional fs shows (like Waltz Disney) but they are not the same. World class competition is where the excitement is.

gkelly · Feb 25, 2012

spikydurian said:
Thank you everyone. Much appreciated. I am going to take my time to watch these videos and shoot off queries if I don't understand anything. Unfortunately, no, gskelly. Figure skating is not a well-known sport in the 'land of kangaroos and koalas'. We are very good at water and ball sports not ice sports. There isn't one ice skating rink where I live! :=(

There are some ice rinks in Australia. Of course that won't do you any good if the closes one is a thousand miles from where you are.

They do have occasional fs shows (like Waltz Disney) but they are not the same. World class competition is where the excitement is.

If you can get the opportunity even to see that kind of show, especially from up close, it could be useful in giving you a feel for the way the blades curve across the ice, what they sound like or don't sound like, how fast a skater is going, etc., and then you'd have a better sense of those qualities when you watch competitive skating on youtube.

Olympia · Feb 25, 2012

I watched some of the tapes you guys linked to, and then I ended up getting sidetracked and watching a bunch of Klimova/Ponomarenko programs...they are so astounding.

Back to business, once I figured out how to watch two tapes side by side, it was especially interesting to watch Usova/Zhulin (one of my other favorite couples) and McDonald and Smith in a comparison test. I'll have to watch them again a few times to see what more I can pick out about them. Thanks!

By the way, I found a website of Alina Adams on which she interviewed Marina Klimova some time in the recent past. I don't know what links I'm allowed to post here, so I'm not supplying the link, but it's a lovely chat with a skating star who isn't generally heard from these days. She and her husband coach in San Jose, where they're bringing up their two sons. She sounds as far from a diva as you can get, even with the rather stiff translation from Russian to English. She talks about things such as a comparison of skating levels now and when she skated, and how difficult her early life as a skater was. She's one of those kids who, like Plushenko, left home at a very early age--she was all of 12--to get better training with Natalia Dubova. She was paired with Ponomarenko when he was 19 or so and she was just 13. Touched by destiny right out of the gate, obviously.

dorispulaski · Feb 25, 2012

Olympia, please post a link in the Announcements folder, if not here? I want to see that interview.

For those who might not know, Marina & Sergei's son Anthony is an ice dancer, and skated at US Junior Nationals this year in Intermediates with his partner Sarah Feng. They finished 5th overall, 3rd in the free dance.

Olympia · Feb 25, 2012

dorispulaski said:
Olympia, please post a link in the Announcements folder, if not here? I want to see that interview.

For those who might not know, Marina & Sergei's son Anthony is an ice dancer, and skated at US Junior Nationals this year in Intermediates with his partner Sarah Feng. They finished 5th overall, 3rd in the free dance.

http://www.figureskatingmystery.com/2007/04/where-are-they-now-maria-klimova.html

This is on Alina Adams's site, so it starts with a promotion of her book, but scroll down, and there's Marina's interview. Good to know that her son is doing so well. The subject actually comes up in the interview, which is from a few years ago. At one point, Marina says: I can see such abilities in my younger son and he is practicing figure skating. My older son doers not have a sports character. I love that she's able to see that one child wants to follow this path and the other doesn't, and she and Ponomarenko don't push.

Spun Silver · Feb 25, 2012

I'm appalled that one of the greatest teams in ice dancing history is not coaching top contenders right now. Their influence would be such a huge contribution to the sport. Alex and Maia, are you listening?

Besides, California vs. Michigan? Tough one....

Mathman · Feb 25, 2012

Spun Silver said:
Besides, California vs. Michigan? Tough one....

And yet, all good ice dance teams choose to come here rather than there. Go figure.

Olympia · Feb 25, 2012

Spun Silver said:
I'm appalled that one of the greatest teams in ice dancing history is not coaching top contenders right now. Their influence would be such a huge contribution to the sport. Alex and Maia, are you listening?

Besides, California vs. Michigan? Tough one....

Yeah, I was thinking how nice it would be for them to go up to Ice Dance Central in Canton and offer their services. Who wouldn't want to get some sort of input from these demigods? Not only are they one of the finest technical teams ever, their artistry was unparalleled both during their amateur careers and as pros, and they also studied with two of the finest coaches ever, Dubova and Tarasova, so they have those insights to offer.

dorispulaski · Feb 25, 2012

Actually, I looked at it the other way. It is customary to say those that can't do, teach, but there is perhaps more to the opposite proposition: those that were superlatively gifted, may not be able to teach as well as those who were less intrinsically talented.

I think if Marina and/or Sergei were as superlative at coaching or choreography as they were at skating, then perhaps we would have heard about some of their students by now?

Ways to watch a program

LeReveur

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

spikydurian

gkelly

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

gkelly

Olympia

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Dragonlady

gkelly

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

spikydurian

gkelly

Olympia

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Olympia

Spun Silver

Mathman

Olympia

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

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