Figure skaters lend presence to North Korean event

[DianaSelene]

I think the problem was not English-the problem was that some people do not understand "emoticonic " very well.

For example, some people on the Asberger's spectrum are not good with irony or satire in the first place (yes, I am speaking from experience with people in my own family), and they don't read facial expression/body language very well either, so emoticons that don't have an understandable tag are not always properly understood. (what is a sheesh ????? I'm not sure. )

I am somewhere on the spectrum myself, although not as far out as my brother and one of his kids. To be sure I understand what an emoticon means, I let my cursor dwell over it to look at its tag. In the case of :sheesh: , after thinking a bit, I conclude, I guess this indicates irony but I am not quite sure.

on the other hand is completely understandable, because its tag is "confused". That I get right away.

And that's where and why misunderstandings arise.

Yeah, I see where you are coming from. I really didn't see the "irony" emoticon and put that one instead. Should have thought about it. I'll be more careful next time.

[dorispulaski]

Thanks, I really appreciate your understanding of where we're coming from. I think sheesh will do for irony, but I'm going to see whether we can't get it renamed, or add an emoticon for irony, because we don't have one right now.

[dorispulaski]

Check out the new name for :sheesh: It is now Sarcasm. (Thank you Paula!)

[Olympia]

Sounds perfect, Doris!

By the way, did anyone notice the news item yesterday that said that North Korea had agreed to suspend its nuclear program, in exchange for food aid? I hope Kim III really means it, and that the food aid will get to more people than just the army.

[DianaSelene]

Check out the new name for :sheesh: It is now Sarcasm. (Thank you Paula!)

Thank you!

[Mathman]

Sounds perfect, Doris!

By the way, did anyone notice the news item yesterday that said that North Korea had agreed to suspend its nuclear program, in exchange for food aid? I hope Kim III really means it, and that the food aid will get to more people than just the army.

I wonder if it was exposure to the beauty of international figure skating that softened his heart.

[skatinginbc]

The annual witch hunt for skaters who take part in the North Korean ice show is largely based on the ideology that good people don't support dictatorship and human rights violations. Strangely, the same moral standard does not apply to skaters who participated in the Junior Worlds in Belarus, whose government is criticized for human rights violations and known as one of the world's six outposts of tyranny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus). The sport-mad Belarus president Alexander Lukashenko said recently he would rather be branded a dictator than be gay (http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03...elarus-leader/). So what is exactly our principle here? Why are we condemning an ice show in North Korea and yet at the same time celebrating our Junior Worlds in Belarus? What makes the European dictatorship different from the Asian dictatorship or any dictatorship?

[let`s talk]

^ Well, I don't think you can put the "=" mark between NK and Belarus. Not even near at all. For start, Belorussians can travel internationally and the country accepts internationl tourists. You can't say the same about NK. The country is not so isolated in diplomatic relations with the reast of the world as NK. Minsk is full of restaurants and it doesn't really need any food program. They have internet. This country is a candidate for the Coucil of Europe, and together with that, for the European Court of Human rights. Of course Belorus is the only country in Europe where death penalty still takes place, one of the reasons why its entrance to the Council of Europe is being postponed. The leader can hardly be called a democratically elected one. But yet you can't compare him as equal to NK leader. From all ex-USSR republics Turkmenistan is probably the most dictatorship-style with the president-for-life and geoblocked youtube and faceboook.

[Olympia]

^ Well, I don't think you can put the "=" mark between NK and Belarus. Not even near at all. For start, Belorussians can travel internationally and the country accepts internationl tourists. You can't say the same about NK. The country is not so isolated in diplomatic relations with the reast of the world as NK. Minsk is full of restaurants and it doesn't really need any food program. They have internet. This country is a candidate for the Coucil of Europe, and together with that, for the European Court of Human rights. Of course Belorus is the only country in Europe where death penalty still takes place, one of the reasons why its entrance to the Council of Europe is being postponed. The leader can hardly be called a democratically elected one. But yet you can't compare him as equal to NK leader. From all ex-USSR republics Turkmenistan is probably the most dictatorship-style with the president-for-life and geoblocked youtube and faceboook.

Agreed.
It also occurs to me, and this is just a speculation, that as a part of the old Soviet Union, Belarus is a longtime member of the skating orbit, so to speak. If anyone takes issue with its dictator, Belarus would have to be knocked out of the fraternity. Whereas North Korea has never been a full participant in world skating competition or events, though they send some skaters from time to time. So it's more a matter of not letting them in.

BC, one reason I think the term "witch hunt" is misplaced is that critics of Lepisto have no power actually to do anything to her. No one is going to penalize her, boycott her, or even get her marked lower by judges. We just get peeved.

[skatinginbc]

"I did not leave North Korea because I was hungry for food, but because I was hungry for music," said Cheol Woong Kim. He regarded the New York Philharmonic's recent performance in North Korea as a success because the orchestra's music had been broadcast publicly for all North Koreans to hear. "In order to change North Korean people, you need to engage." (http://www.nysun.com/arts/fleeing-fo...freedom/77397/)

Belorussians can travel internationally and the country accepts international tourists.

"The Government of Belarus has attempted to silence dissent by persecuting human rights and pro-democracy activists with threats, firings, expulsions, beatings and other forms of intimidation, and restrictions on freedom of movement and prohibition of international travel." (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.515.ENR:). "The government maintained a database of persons who were banned from traveling abroad...the list contained the names of at least 120,000 persons who were prohibited from foreign travel...Internal passports, a form of national identity card, were required for permanent housing, work, and hotel registration. Police continued to harass individuals who lived at a location other than the legal place of residence indicated in their internal passports." (http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt...eur/154414.htm) "Security authorities may place foreigners under surveillance. Hotel rooms, telephones, fax machines, and e-mail messages may be monitored. Personal possessions in hotel rooms may be searched." (http://www.voyage.gc.ca/countries_pa...g.asp?id=27000).

"Roughly 1,500 Western tourists visit North Korea each year, along with thousands of Asians" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_North_Korea)

They (Belorussians) have internet.

Belarus was listed as an "internet enemy" and is currently on the "under surveillance" list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Belarus). Its internet freedom is at stake (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...eedom-internet).

This country (Belarus) is a candidate for the Council of Europe, and together with that, for the European Court of Human rights.

The Council of Europe expressed "its strongest regret that Belarus, unlike all the other European countries, does not meet the conditions to be a member of the Council of Europe in terms of pluralist democracy, compliance with the rule of law and respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms" (http://assembly.coe.int/main.asp?lin...6/eres1482.htm). The Council is "deeply concerned about the deteriorating situation of human rights and civil and political liberties in Belarus" (http://assembly.coe.int/Mainf.asp?li...2/ERES1857.htm).

Like North Korea, Belarus ranks poorly in all freedom indexes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices).

Belarus is a longtime member of the skating orbit, so to speak. If anyone takes issue with its dictator, Belarus would have to be knocked out of the fraternity. Whereas North Korea has never been a full participant in world skating competition or events, though they send some skaters from time to time. So it's more a matter of not letting them in.

Belarus is an in-group, a bad brother but a brother nonetheless, whereas North Korea is an out-group, a self-isolated stranger whom we isolate further with disgust. And we do so under the banner of human rights.

"Foreigners in North Korea believe the majority of people up there definitely feel in the need for change. A majority of northerners have become aware of the outside world, especially what's going on in China (several decades of free market economy) and understand that North Korea's problems are the result of poor leadership" (http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/kore.../20120306.aspx). The increased awareness is not gained through isolation but through contact. What North Koreans need is more skating shows, more New York Philharmonic, more foreigners that bring in news of the outside world.

[Olympia]

"Foreigners in North Korea believe the majority of people up there definitely feel in the need for change. A majority of northerners have become aware of the outside world, especially what's going on in China (several decades of free market economy) and understand that North Korea's problems are the result of poor leadership" (http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/kore.../20120306.aspx). The increased awareness is not gained through isolation but through contact. What North Koreans need is more skating shows, more New York Philharmonic, more foreigners that bring in news of the outside world.

BC, I hope you're right and it's reached that tipping moment in North Korea. Wouldn't it be wonderful? There's an American saying from the sixties: Suppose they gave a war, and nobody came. It would be great if someone from the ruling dynasty--in either of these two countries--called on his people to follow, and they all turned their backs on him.

You seem to be saying that North Korea has been growing more porous lately. If that's the case, yippee! And bring on the skaters and the Gershwin. What I fear is that most of the Korean people have no access to what we think we're sending in there. In any case, it's important that we ask these questions. It's not a matter of either/or. In criticizing North Korea, we're not implying approval of Belarus. Indeed, keeping quiet about North Korea just because nobody's yelling loudly enough about Belarus is not doing the North Koreans any favors.

[let`s talk]

links

Oh please. Give the US government some break. They did hard work and they can do it for any country that they wish. So, the war this summer will be not in Iran but in Belorus? Oh well.

Btw, almost everything in those links can be said about Russia too! Yeah, we still have domestic passports! I wonder why people came to bad Moscow last Worlds.

[skatinginbc]

almost everything in those links can be said about Russia too! Yeah, we still have domestic passports! I wonder why people came to bad Moscow last Worlds.

Exactly. That is the point I’ve been trying to make: If we start mixing skating events with international politics, where do we draw the line? The dictatorship in North Korea is unquestionably deplorable. I see it as a positive sign whenever the reclusive regime opens its door a tiny crack. Indeed, having an ice show is mainly for the entertainment of the elite and allowing foreign tour groups is to fill up Kims’ pocket, but after a crack here and another there, the door may eventually open too wide to be shut with ease if we allow it to happen slowly .

It would be great if someone from the ruling dynasty….

16-year-old Kim Han Sol, one of Kim Jong Il’s grandsons, voted for democracy over communism in an internet poll (http://www.theworld.org/2011/10/dear...studies-peace/). Kim Jong Un, the "Great Successor”, attended the English-language International School of Bern, Switzerland in the 1990s. “In a bold and surprising move, North Korea’s young, new and little-known leader Kim Jong Un has agreed to suspend nuclear weapons testing and allow international inspectors access to Pyongyang’s reactor and research site.” (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ontent=2353949). Reform is a chancy path. Being too quick or too soon may result in the demise of the ruling dynasty but not necessarily the birth of democracy. It may simply be replaced by another totalitarian regime or by one of the exiting elite who strives to maintain the accustomed lavish lifestyle and prestige. There is a good chance Kim Jong Un would choose the survival of the Kims over the common good of the average people but at the same time gradually open the door for the benefit of the elite (so there is minimal objection from them) till one day they suddenly realize that there is no turning back and reform is inevitable.

[Olympia]

I hope your scenario is what will happen, BC. I pray that's what will happen.

It's not entirely naive to hope, in fact. I'm old enough to remember that apartheid was supposed to last forever, and then not only did it end, but Nelson Mandela himself became President.